D&D General Vote Up A 5e-alike, Part 3.1 - What do the stats do?

[Faolyn]

Minigiant brought up that the six stats are not particularly balanced. So let's fix that! This poll is going to be heavily write-in, since there are so many aspects each stat covers, should cover but don't, or does cover but shouldn't that it's difficult to list them all. So here goes:

What should each attribute actually do? Should we use the 5e skill list or create new skills?

Strength: Currently affects Athletics; attack and damage rolls from melee and thrown weapons; carrying capacity and encumbrance.

Dexterity: Currently affects Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth; Armor Class; attack and damage rolls from finesse and ranged weapons; initiative.

Constitution: Currently affects hit points. Should there be Constitution-based skills?

Intelligence: Currently affects Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, Religion; spell save DC and number of spells you can prepare (Int casters only). Should Intelligence affect initiative or AC? Provide bonus skills or languages?

Wisdom: Currently affects Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Perception, Survival; spell save DC and number of spells you can prepare (Wis casters only)

Charisma: Currently affects Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion; spell save DC and number of spells you can prepare (Cha casters only).

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'd like to add: fold saves into attack rolls vs different defenses, so all attacks are resolved with one mechanic instead of the needless complexity of having two or more.

For instance, you could use AC for any attack that could miss (if only partially, like a fireball) and WILL or Magic Resistance or whatever, for attacks that don't hit or miss, at all, but either work or don't work.

 

[Scribe]

Hmm I am not liking the options on this one.

Str Dmg yes.
Dex Dmg yes, for given weapons.

Int for Initiative.

Will have to think on this as I'm between meetings.

 

[CreamCloud0]

speaking of there not being CON skills i remember i was talking about these the other day:

-Resistance - proficiency in CON saving throws, also grants half proficiency in untrained skills when resisting effects
-Vitality - prerequisite for adding your CON modifier to HP gain
-Concentration - for spell concentration or any other abilities that use it
-Death - add prof+CON bonus for death saving throws

 

[TwoSix]

Leave stats "mostly" as-is. There are a thousand ways to tweak them, but they mostly work fine, and once they're open to being changed around, there's no getting any sort of agreement.

Things I would change:

1) As I mentioned in an earlier thread, allow prof bonus to be used in place of stat mod for attack/damage/spell save DC calculations.
2) When using a shield, you may use Str instead of Dex in your AC calculation.
3) Alert feat: In addition to its other benefits, you may use Int modifier instead of Dex for Initiative rolls.
4) Observant feat: In addition to its other benefits, you may use Wis modifier instead of Dex for Initiative rolls. (Alternatively, you may use a Perception check in place of an Initiative check.)
5) Make Mage Armor a feat. +1 to Int, you may use Int mod in place of Dex for AC calculations, if you are not wearing armor or using a shield your AC calculation can be 13+Int mod.

Other than that, I'd make a fair amount of changes to feats or class features that are currently (Prof Mod per day), and change them back to (Stat Mod per day) to provide more differentiation and utility for stats, due to my change #1 making stats less central to combat.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Leave stats "mostly" as-is. There are a thousand ways to tweak them, but they mostly work fine, and once they're open to being changed around, there's no getting any sort of agreement.

Things I would change:

1) As I mentioned in an earlier thread, allow prof bonus to be used in place of stat mod for attack/damage/spell save DC calculations.
2) When using a shield, you may use Str instead of Dex in your AC calculation.
3) Alert feat: In addition to its other benefits, you may use Int modifier instead of Dex for Initiative rolls.
4) Observant feat: In addition to its other benefits, you may use Wis modifier instead of Dex for Initiative rolls. (Alternatively, you may use a Perception check in place of an Initiative check.)
5) Make Mage Armor a feat. +1 to Int, you may use Int mod in place of Dex for AC calculations, if you are not wearing armor or using a shield your AC calculation can be 13+Int mod.

Other than that, I'd make a fair amount of changes to feats or class features that are currently (Prof Mod per day), and change them back to (Stat Mod per day) to provide more differentiation and utility for stats, due to my change #1 making stats less central to combat.

i like these, i would typically prefer mage armour to be +dex as it prevents casters from being so SAD but being a feat rather than a common spell i think that's a fair change, would it specifically have to be INT modifier or could it be based on using any of the mental stats/spellcasting modifiers?

 

[TwoSix]

i like these, i would typically prefer mage armour to be +dex as it prevents casters from being so SAD but being a feat rather than a common spell i think that's a fair change, would it specifically have to be INT modifier or could it be based on using any of the mental stats/spellcasting modifiers?

I, personally, would specifically use Int as Mage Armor seems most relevant to an arcane/wizardy sort. But note that this would coincide with my rule change #1 that would make "casting stat" more of a suggestion than a necessity.

 

[Lanefan]

Minigiant brought up that the six stats are not particularly balanced. So let's fix that! This poll is going to be heavily write-in, since there are so many aspects each stat covers, should cover but don't, or does cover but shouldn't that it's difficult to list them all. So here goes:

What should each attribute actually do? Should we use the 5e skill list or create new skills?

Strength: Currently affects Athletics; attack and damage rolls from melee and thrown weapons; carrying capacity and encumbrance.

That Strength directs carrying capacity and encumbrance is perhaps the least controversial thing here.

Dexterity: Currently affects Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth; Armor Class; attack and damage rolls from finesse and ranged weapons; initiative.

Dexterity should NEVER affect damage! That's Strength's purview - being stronger means you hit it harder and hurt it more. Dex affecting to-hit with ranged means you're more likely to hit it at all, not that you'll do more damage when you connect.

Also, IMO initiative shouldn't be modified by anything (and should be rerolled each round), to better simulate the chaos and unpredictability of battle a.k.a. the fog of war.

Constitution: Currently affects hit points. Should there be Constitution-based skills?

Constitution affecting h.p. is fine; as is a Con bonus (or penalty) to saves against things that are trying to affect one's body e.g. poison, disease, maybe polymorph. It should also affect endurance e.g. resistance to cold, hunger, etc., and provide resistance to going unconscious at 0 (or below; hit points and dying-death mechanics are a whole separate discussion).

Intelligence: Currently affects Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, Religion; spell save DC and number of spells you can prepare (Int casters only). Should Intelligence affect initiative or AC? Provide bonus skills or languages?

Hard no to affecting initiative (see above) or AC. Yes it should give bonus languages, and as I'm not sold on the skill system as a whole I'll abstain on that bit for now. Int should also provide a bonus against things that try to affect the mind e.g. charms, some illusions, and all psionics.

Wisdom: Currently affects Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Perception, Survival; spell save DC and number of spells you can prepare (Wis casters only)

Animal handling seems tailor-made as a Charisma-based ability, what's it doing in Wisdom? Some aspects of survival might want to move to Constitution.

Charisma: Currently affects Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion; spell save DC and number of spells you can prepare (Cha casters only).

What's missing from one or both of Wisdom and Charisma is the whole idea of "spiritual strength" or "spiritual resilience"; i.e. how resistant are you to effects that try to attack or affect your soul (assuming there's any left in 5e). Also what's missing is the admittedly-nebulous idea of willpower, which falls somewhere under one or both of these stats.

I could go on for hours with this stuff, but that's enough for now.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Hmm I am not liking the options on this one.

Str Dmg yes.
Dex Dmg yes, for given weapons.

Int for Initiative.

Will have to think on this as I'm between meetings.

Basically stats and saves like AD&D and its contemporaries, but I like Int for initiative. I'd also like to see Dex for AC regardless of armor type, to make heavy armor more viable by off-setting the downsides (which should remain).

 

[Micah Sweet]

That Strength directs carrying capacity and encumbrance is perhaps the least controversial thing here.

Dexterity should NEVER affect damage! That's Strength's purview - being stronger means you hit it harder and hurt it more. Dex affecting to-hit with ranged means you're more likely to hit it at all, not that you'll do more damage when you connect.

Also, IMO initiative shouldn't be modified by anything (and should be rerolled each round), to better simulate the chaos and unpredictability of battle a.k.a. the fog of war.

Constitution affecting h.p. is fine; as is a Con bonus (or penalty) to saves against things that are trying to affect one's body e.g. poison, disease, maybe polymorph. It should also affect endurance e.g. resistance to cold, hunger, etc., and provide resistance to going unconscious at 0 (or below; hit points and dying-death mechanics are a whole separate discussion).

Hard no to affecting initiative (see above) or AC. Yes it should give bonus languages, and as I'm not sold on the skill system as a whole I'll abstain on that bit for now. Int should also provide a bonus against things that try to affect the mind e.g. charms, some illusions, and all psionics.

Animal handling seems tailor-made as a Charisma-based ability, what's it doing in Wisdom? Some aspects of survival might want to move to Constitution.

What's missing from one or both of Wisdom and Charisma is the whole idea of "spiritual strength" or "spiritual resilience"; i.e. how resistant are you to effects that try to attack or affect your soul (assuming there's any left in 5e). Also what's missing is the admittedly-nebulous idea of willpower, which falls somewhere under one or both of these stats.

I could go on for hours with this stuff, but that's enough for now.

Wisdom should be about mental strength/willpower than sensory perception anyway. Roll all that stuff into a separate searching roll.