Vow of Poverty (plusses and minuses)

[Griftar]

So, I've got the Book of Exhaulted Deeds, and have been dying to make a serious Vow-of-Poverty Monk. I want him to be able to fight as good or better than the best of them. But I've found that creating a (close to optimal - damage machine) Vow-of-Poverty Monk from level 1 is quite challenging.

For starters the Human Vow of Poverty Monk gets ALOT of Feats. Many of them are bonus exhaulted Feats. Unfortunatly, most of the exhaulted feats to not directly relate to damage dealing monks. Sure the Holy Ki is GREAT, at 6th level, but WHY the high CHA 15 prerequisite for Sanctify Ki? It seams that Monks need to be VERY well rounded

High Wisdom - To add to Attack rolls (via Intuitive attack) and AC bonuses, not to mention
other Monkly abilities
High Dex for AC - (since we're not getting any magical bumps)
High Con for HP - This is almost a must for my melee characters... It's come in handy often.
High Strength - to add to damage, and at least 13 for Power Attack. Of course if we have
a high strength, it kinda negates the point of getting Intuitive attack until
higher levels when Wisdom far surpassed strength. Of course since VOP
Monks can't wear magical bufs, their strength bonus is the only real damage
bonus we get (other than the increasing die for unarmed strike), and some
of the extra damage from Exhaulted stuff (Sanctify Ki, Holy Ki)

High Cha - to help with Diplomacy stuff (yeah right), and at least 15 for Sanctify Ki Exhaulted Feat.

Oh, and a high Int to get more skill points, and as a pre-req to Combat Expertise to get Whirlwind attack.

I've decided against Whirlwind attack, since by the time I can get Combat Expertise, my Flurry of Blows along with Greater Cleave could REALLY be more effective.

Of course the Resounding Blow Feat is nice, but it has a prereq of Intimidate 7 ranks... And since Intimidate is a cross Class Skill for a monk, I wouldn't be able to get it until 14th level, AND I'd have to dump 14 skillpoints into Intimidate, something we're probably not going to use much of in our Dungeon Crawl.


Any thoughts on tweaking? Anyone ever played one of these before? How well did it work? How high did you play him/her? I love to hear other(s) comments!

Thanks,
-Griftar

 

[Thanee]

Well, don't expect to be the best fighter all around. Monks are mediocre fighters at best. Even a totally tweaked out Monk is probably only on par with an average Fighter or Barbarian.

That said, Monks really have the best synergy with VoP, especially there are plenty really useful exalted feats for Monks, while other classes quickly run out of useful options.

I'd consider Touch of Golden Ice as an early feat, since it's quite cool in the early levels (helps hitting foes, as it lowers their AC ), but later on becomes less useful.

Ability priorities should be STR and WIS, with CON and DEX being second tier.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I only had a VoP Monk NPC (Monk 1 / Cleric 4 to be precise), who was quite cool, not overly powerful, but a cool character with lots of options.

Spoiler

Dirtan
Male Gnome, 1st-level Monk/4th-Level Cleric of Ilmater
Small Humanoid (Rock Gnome)

Hit Dice: 5d8+15 (43 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (+2 Dex, +3 Wis, +1 size, +5 exalted), touch 16, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+0
Attack: Unarmed Strike +6 melee (1d4+2 + ravage)
Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +6 melee (1d4+2 + ravage) or Flurry of Blows +4/+4 melee (1d4+2 + ravage)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Flurry of Blows, Turn Undead, Spells
Special Qualities: Gnome Traits, Endure Elements (hot and cold), Exalted Strike +1 (magic), Sustenance
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +9
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12
Skills: Concentration +11(8), Diplomacy +5(2), Heal +8(5), Hide +10(4), Knowledge (religion) +6(5), Listen +5(0), Move Silently +6(4), Spot +5(2), Spellcraft +3(2)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Touch of Golden Ice
Home Region: The Western Heartlands
Patron Deity: Ilmater
Alignment: Lawful Good

Dirtan speaks Common, Gnome, Chondathan and Celestial.

Spells: As 4th-level Cleric
Cleric Domains: Healing, Strength
Cleric Spells per Day: (5/4+1/3+1; save DC 13 + spell level)
0 - Create Water, Detect Magic, Light, Read Magic (2);
1st - Bless, Protection from Evil (2), Sanctuary, Enlarge Person (D);
2nd - Lesser Restoration, Shield Other, Silence, Bull's Strength (D).

Equipment: Simple gray Robe, Simple gray Skullcap, Simple Bag, Simple Holy Symbol of Ilmater, Pair of Thorn Bracelets (Shield Other Focus); 0 gp, 0 sp, 0 cp.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

Our party had a VoP Monk. I gave him a hand in Min/Maxing it, and he started with very good rolled stats.

His biggest problem is hit points, followed by AC. He just doesn't have the staying power of the other melee-ers.

 

[Tetsubo]

A friend of mine thought that a Druid would be interesting with a VoP. Especially one that uses a lot of Wild Shapes.

 

[moritheil]

Surprisingly, I've discovered that the VoP paladin can be feasible.

 

[Plane Sailing]

A PC in my campaign died, and was replaced by a new 10th level VoP monk. After two sessions the player asked if he could retire it and come up with something new because he was just rubbish. He could handle fights OK, but when it came to negotiating unusual terrain he was just a liability.

 

[ThirdWizard]

My players would simply not play a VoP character because it gets rid of half the fun. Sure, you can kill things, but you don't get to take their stuff (or at least keep it).

 

[Tetsubo]

A PC in my campaign died, and was replaced by a new 10th level VoP monk. After two sessions the player asked if he could retire it and come up with something new because he was just rubbish. He could handle fights OK, but when it came to negotiating unusual terrain he was just a liability.

Could you explain that? In all the years I've gamed (since 1978) terrain has never been any sort of issue, either as a player or a GM. This concept baffles me... to retire a character over it just seems vastly bizarre...

 

[Evilhalfling]

well I played a cleric of Grumbar (earth god) who had taken a vow not to fly or travel on water
and he presented a number of problems in our high lvl campaign - esp once teleport quit working for us. there is a big underground lake - what do you do?
you want to cross a chasm and the sorcerer with D.Door didn't come tonight - he cave exit is 100 ft up in the middle of the cavern....

but VoP characters can have others cast spells on them, and ride on magical conveyances (just not own one) okay so no horse. thats what the spells mount and Phantom steed are for.