[VTT] Going Back to VTT Instead of Live Play

[Tun Kai Poh]

And I'm not sure how you'd go introducing new players to the game over VTT - they'd have to learn the game and the VTT interface simultaneously, and that might make it harder than it would be face-to-face. But on the whole - I'm a 100% convert to the church of All VTT All The Time.

You want to go with a simple game you can run via theatre of the mind - players should not need to learn how to master a VTT to roleplay. Something like For the Queen, Cthulhu Dark, Lasers & Feelings. I teach newbies Cthulhu Dark in a single 4 hour one-shot using Discord audio and text chat alone. Chargen is literally creating a name and persona, and choosing a occupation. The platform is enough for me to drop visual aids into the text chat (rainy Seattle streets, a lonely lighthouse, a restaurant on a hill) and the voice chat handles the rest.

Anything that requires learning to move tokens on a grid is already a step above the level I use for teaching.

 

[Jd Smith1]

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You want to go with a simple game you can run via theatre of the mind - players should not need to learn how to master a VTT to roleplay. Something like For the Queen, Cthulhu Dark, Lasers & Feelings. I teach newbies Cthulhu Dark in a single 4 hour one-shot using Discord audio and text chat alone. Chargen is literally creating a name and persona, and choosing a occupation. The platform is enough for me to drop visual aids into the text chat (rainy Seattle streets, a lonely lighthouse, a restaurant on a hill) and the voice chat handles the rest.

Anything that requires learning to move tokens on a grid is already a step above the level I use for teaching.

I would say exactly the opposite.

'Theater of the mind' only works if the GM is really good, and the player has the correct background to translate a lot of jargon and numbers into imagined transactions.

But seeing the map, the tokens, the images...that is much easier. And finding a player who is intimidated by computers isn't much of a threat these days.

For my Zweihander game I recruited five players, none of whom had played that game before, and three had no Roll20 experience. Learning Roll20 as a player is the work of minutes for anyone who has used a computer before, and the visuals, particularly dynamic lighting, will quickly draw them in, far faster than some GM droning on about shifting shadows and fanged humanoids.

There's a good reason why video games have outclassed TTRPGs by such a massive edge: because the 'theater of the mind' is a third-rate contender. Seeing is believing, and a very efficient communication medium.

 

[Retreater]

I think many in the gaming community oversell "theater of the mind" - as if their players are sitting on the edge of their seats, in bated breath as descriptions of nefarious shadows lurk just out of sight, taking in the sounds and smells with their imaginary senses. But be honest - most groups are there eating Doritos, swigging Mountain Dew, checking their cellphones, and quoting Spaceballs. It's socialization time. It's a game. It's not high art. It's not like attending the symphony.
Especially when you're playing online, you need visuals to keep the players focused: maps, NPC portraits, etc. Having just a blank screen there to stare at isn't going to hold their attention.

 

[ART!]

I think many in the gaming community oversell "theater of the mind" - as if their players are sitting on the edge of their seats, in bated breath as descriptions of nefarious shadows lurk just out of sight, taking in the sounds and smells with their imaginary senses. But be honest - most groups are there eating Doritos, swigging Mountain Dew, checking their cellphones, and quoting Spaceballs. It's socialization time. It's a game. It's not high art. It's not like attending the symphony.
Especially when you're playing online, you need visuals to keep the players focused: maps, NPC portraits, etc. Having just a blank screen there to stare at isn't going to hold their attention.

I basically agree - that kind of dramatic tension is hard to create and maintain. But some groups are more invested in that approach than others, or make it more of a priority than others. Some go to great lengths and are committed to contributing to that drama as a group. I'm not sur eif that's easier to do FtF or virtually, and again it probably depends on the group.

 

[aramis erak]

I think many in the gaming community oversell "theater of the mind" - as if their players are sitting on the edge of their seats, in bated breath as descriptions of nefarious shadows lurk just out of sight, taking in the sounds and smells with their imaginary senses. But be honest - most groups are there eating Doritos, swigging Mountain Dew, checking their cellphones, and quoting Spaceballs. It's socialization time. It's a game. It's not high art. It's not like attending the symphony.
Especially when you're playing online, you need visuals to keep the players focused: maps, NPC portraits, etc. Having just a blank screen there to stare at isn't going to hold their attention.

Most of my games FTF have used TotM as the primary mode, with tokens and maps only occasionally needed.

Some games, however...
D&D 3/4/5, T2K 2e & 4e, and Stargate (a 5E variant)... all have really tactical rules... and really benefit from gridded movement.

L5R, players benefitted from the maps more than the use of markers upon them...

Edit: completing the thought:
TotM isn't the barrier for VTT for me; for many it shouldn't be. There are those for whom it never works, and others who it works but not well. I know one gal for whom it never works... she has aphantasia. She mentioned that, in college, D&D only worked when the minis hit the table OR people were fully in character voice, and best when actually nearly LARPing. There is a wide spectrum. For most, it works at least passably much of the time with the right games and a decent GM.

It's the lack of physical and visual feedback I get from observing people in person, that I can't do online, not even with camera based. Doesn't prevent me from a weekly game (one where most of us log in and chat for the half an hour prior to start time, and sometimes for an hour or two after.) once game starts, it's game until something is misplace, or a rule needs to be adjudicated carefully (especially when playtesting).

Players nervously leaning in over the map in T2K is a sign of engagement. If they're looking between two threats, that's also a different cue.

 

[Tun Kai Poh]

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I would say exactly the opposite.

'Theater of the mind' only works if the GM is really good, and the player has the correct background to translate a lot of jargon and numbers into imagined transactions.

But seeing the map, the tokens, the images...that is much easier. And finding a player who is intimidated by computers isn't much of a threat these days.

I'm specifically not talking about games like Zweihander. There is no jargon, there are no numbers. Lasers and Feelings and Cthulhu Dark each have one stat per character -that's not a lot to keep track of. And I do post visual aids, and if it helps, a city map or some other document to help players visualise an area.

But some games create the landscape as you go. While you could draw a map on a shared document to aid play in a game like For the Queen, play can progress faster than the time it takes to draw the map - when the structure of the game is all about answering story prompts and collaborating on flashbacks about your place in the queen's court, the focus is on character and relationships, not "I take a five-foot step." There is no place in such a game for a grid map or tokens.

I was responding specifically to the issue of how to teach new players how to roleplay without also teaching them how to use a VTT. It isn't hard if you're not using a game that requires a VTT.

On Saturday, I ran a Cthulhu Deep Green one-shot for three strangers, using voice chat and the text chat (with posting of reference photos). One had only prior experience with play-by-post, another only had experience with Vincent and Meguey Baker's Firebrands, another was basically a newbie I think. The high point of the scenario was when the investigators locked themselves inside a ghost kitchen to taste-test a mysterious foodstuff from the far realm of Carcosa. I don't think a VTT map and tokens could have enhanced what followed in any way - the situation was too fast-flowing to stop and prepare a map of the kitchen as it was!

Report on that incident:

Commentary thread for that “Describe your game in five words” thread.

To explain why I dropped sunday TOR for Tunnels and Trolls... TOR 2E broke the balance. When low-experience parties can curbstomp a full on Barrow Wight... Tunnels and Trolls I can run with trivial levels of prep. Especially given the internet and the number of available free dungeon maps.

www.enworld.org

 

[Jd Smith1]

I'm specifically not talking about games like Zweihander. There is no jargon, there are no numbers. Lasers and Feelings and Cthulhu Dark each have one stat per character -that's not a lot to keep track of. And I do post visual aids, and if it helps, a city map or some other document to help players visualise an area.

I wasn't specifically referring to Zweihander; I've been gaming since 1979, and it is clear to me that the 'theater of the mind' exists mainly in the ego of talkative GMs. I used a VTT for over a decade of F2F games before switching to online..

The high point of the scenario was when the investigators locked themselves inside a ghost kitchen to taste-test a mysterious foodstuff from the far realm of Carcosa.

Wow. That is indeed a new, fresh, brand of horror.

I don't think a VTT map and tokens could have enhanced what followed in any way - the situation was too fast-flowing to stop and prepare a map of the kitchen as it was!

Stop and prepare? Aside from the fact you can set up a map in a couple minutes, tops, who doesn't do their prep work in advance?

But you are right, for a thrilling taste-test challenge, a VTT isn't going to add much to the scene.

 

[Blue]

I greatly enjoy in-person, and am willing to drive the 25 minutes each way on a Friday night. But it's entirely a personal evaluation. I fidn the social aspect to be something I miss, especially since I also work from home. I play with soem great RPers and worth the trip for the whole extra bandwidth of full size people with body language and easily visible expressions and people who occasionally talk at the same time and all of the other things that online does okay but not great.

That doesn't mean I'm giving up online - I keep all of the tools in my toolbox. We've got games with people who aren't geographically convenient, why give them up? I do enjoy being able to fit in more games in a week without devoting the travel time it would require.

So I guess I travel to fulfill social needs with friends, and I also remotely play to get more gaming in.

 

[Retreater]

I get that. I'd also be willing to drive 25 minutes for a regular game. But that's just not an option. It's an hour each way for my closest group, and they're not able to meet up in person for even a monthly game. At best, we're looking at quarterly.
My next closest group of gamers is over 3 hours away.
However, through VTT we can play weekly, something I haven't been able to do since college (20+ years ago).
I'm happy we have both options.

 

[Jd Smith1]

I get that. I'd also be willing to drive 25 minutes for a regular game. But that's just not an option. It's an hour each way for my closest group, and they're not able to meet up in person for even a monthly game. At best, we're looking at quarterly.
My next closest group of gamers is over 3 hours away.
However, through VTT we can play weekly, something I haven't been able to do since college (20+ years ago).
I'm happy we have both options.

Yep. My last F2F game, which lasted 19 years, was always hosted by someone else, meaning a 25-30 minute drive. And packing all my GM gear. I didn't regret it, but online is definitely superior in that regard.