Wahoo vs. Traditional

Things like the demigods (who were former PC's) that carried six-shooters and conjured magical fire extinguishers. And the two ancient empires that magically nuked one another. And the hundreds of sentient races.

The *existence* of fantastic elements IMO is not the same thing as the *prevelance* of magical elements. In Greyhawk, you wouldn't walk into the bar at Hommlet and see that six-shooter carrying wizard or catch an elemental-powered train over to the Great Kingdom. A space-ship crashed in the mountains with special technology was noted for it's uniqueness - and the rules for technology (and explicit advice IIRC) suggested to the DM that these devices wouldn't be of much use outside of the adventure. The Invoked Devastation occurred in the remote past and Gygax was explicit in saying that such power would not be in the hands of PCs ever.

All told, I think the "traditional" approach to DnD assumes that the basic, core setting (villages, cities, etc.) are closer to Medieval/Renaissance than otherwise. Strange/fantastic elements are more prevalent in out-of-the way places, alternate dimensions (eg. Dungeonland) etc. This is different from Eberron where the normal inhabitants of a city are existing along side of an entire race of construct/robots.
 

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It's different, yeah. In the sense that with Eberron, at least it attempts to explain how those things affect society, rather than bolt them on, but nonsensically have them remain forever apart from the rest of the setting.

IMO.

The idea that Greyhawk had all this weird stuff... that was in the core modules that almost everyone played, and yet they didn't really typify the setting, is kind of a strange one to me. Greyhawk was largely defined by the modules, back in the day.
 

During my formative years, I immersed myself in stories about boots that could travel seven leagues in one step, a talking fish that could grant wishes, a doctor who could talk to animals, a shepherd boy who could kill a giant with a sling stone, a Gaulish warrior who grew strong enough to defeat entire armies by drinking a magic potion, a swordsman so skilled that he could decapitate an entire room full of enemies by just throwing his scimitar (and have it return to him, too), a warrior that was invulnerable to injury (except for a single weak spot), an immortal stone monkey who battled demons and protected a travelling monk, and a god of thunder (yes, several of these stories had the gods as protagonists).

For me, wahoo is traditional. :)
Amen (if I may use a religious word for a non-religious context without offending anyone).

And for me there is another side to wahoo: "wahoo brought low", or using wahoo elements and then treating them as mundane in order to make fun of them or to make fun of the mundane.
 


Strange/fantastic elements are more prevalent in out-of-the way places, alternate dimensions (eg. Dungeonland) etc.
You mean the kinds of places PC adventurers go all the time? The kinds of places that DM's either read up on or invent for themselves --because PC adventurers go there all the time?

All I'm saying is that my impression of Greyhawk was formed by reading the setting book and playing the classic modules.

I didn't any time imagining what a hypothetical, non-adventuring dirt farmer thought of the World of Greyhawk (and then using that as my impression of it :)).
 
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I think that's the biggest difference between eberron and the traditional fantasy worlds of D&D.

The fantastic doesnt actually touch the mundane whereas in eberron, the fantastic affects the mundane...I think that's the biggest difference between a wahoo and a traditional setting.
 

All I'm saying is that my impression of Greyhawk was formed by reading the setting book and playing the classic modules.

Interesting. My impressions of Greyhawk were largely formed by the artwork used in the 1983 boxed set. That was my first foray into D&D. The modules came later and after my impressions were already set.

The cover of the box depicts three knights riding across the plains with a very medieval-looking castle in the back ground. The first image I saw when I opened the cover to the guide was the heraldry of the various Kingdoms, cities, and clans. This only enhanced the medieval feeling. The rest of the imagery in the guide looked and felt very medieval. The exceptions being the Flan and their Native American look (one picture, page 15) and the Bakluni and the Arabian Nights look (one picture, page 43). The images in the glossography continued that look.

Contrast that with the Eberron source book wihich showed a warforged fighter on the cover. Pages 1 and 2 had a large layout with an elf wielding a staff with a crystal behind two ghosts attacking a warforged being, a gadget-filled dwarf in the background and a fighter (ranger?) shooting arrows into a strange bladded machine. The artwork throughout continues this look.

Now, I am a very visual person - I can, and do, appreciate both. I am inspired by both. I play campaigns set in both. I associate Greyhawk with medieval fantasy because its artwork. I associate Eberron with a more wahoo fantasy because its artwork. I do not think either of them represent D&D - just elements of D&D. And both can be enjoyed equally well.
 

The fantastic doesnt actually touch the mundane whereas in eberron, the fantastic affects the mundane...I think that's the biggest difference between a wahoo and a traditional setting.
Yep. The thread's kinda got distracted arguing about the fringe and boundary areas, but I'm more interested in the higher level view, and this exactly encapsulates what I meant by "traditional" vs. "wahoo."
 

As I see it, I fall on the more traditional side of gaming. In my homebrew, I strive to create an internally consistent, relatively dark world that conforms to a lot of the assumptions of western european society broadly between the medieval period and the early reformation era. (No firearms, but I do look to the imperial free cities of the reformation for inspiration, for instance). I also canned all of the races except human.

That is not to say there were not fantastic elements. A hidden chapel built of jade that can only be found by walking through a waterfall and is guarded by a demon who challenges the PCs to ritual combat. A land ruled the by the last undead apprentice of an ancient archlich who raises the bodies of his enemies to serve as his armies. And while I probably would not have used beholders, dragons, remhorraz, sphinxes, ghosts, demons, etc would have been fair game.

I have occasionally run Greyhawk. The way I prefer to run that setting, it is also dark and violent, filled with xenophobic elves who generally (with a few exceptions like prince Melf and the knights of luna) look at humans as either useful pawns or dangerous beasts, dwarves who hide within their mountains and care nothing for the troubles of other races, and a collection of human kingdoms that run the gamut from fanatical devotees of order to corrupt and collapsing kingdoms to machiavellian city states who will betray the rest of the world for a small advantage to outright empires of darkness ruled by evil demigods who pave their roads with the skulls of their victims. Magic is not uncommon, but it is practiced as a secret means to gain power and advantage, rather than as a kind of technology. Those who pursue it are as likely as not to be pursuing some quest for immortality or godhood or opposing those who are. The rest are trying to keep their heads down.

I never cared much for Dark sun or Ebberon, but I did like Arcanis (complete with its god emperors, harvesters, and secret societies).

As I see it, the wahoo that I dislike is throwing in every element from every other story or genre you can find without regard to how it fits together into a cohesive whole with the end result that your party of a drow dark pact warlock, a gnoll bard, and orc barbarian, a warforged shaman, a kobold rogue, and an undead cleric of Kelemvor walk into a town besieged by gnolls and are asked, "can you obviously trustworthy adventures help us with our problem, you see we're being attacked by undead and gnollish armies led by the drow?" You quickly end up with parties that have nothing in common except that their players are in the same game and no real connection with the rest of the setting except that they are all freaks that are completely disconnected from the rest of the setting. Does any of this make sense? Who cares? Wahoo!

In that sense, my problem with Ebberon is probably more with the Ebberon campaigns that I have experienced--all my Ebberon experience was with the Mark of Heroes RPGA campaign than the setting itself. Well, probably that and it seems to deal with making sense of the standard D&D assumptions in rather the opposite way to the one I do. It embraces the humans in funny suits who mostly get along in a cosmopolitan, star wars cantina type way rather than emphasizing their alienness. (This habit also tends to eliminate the nature of some creatures--which a planescape example may serve to make clear. When an angel walks into a bar and sits down with you to have a beer, he ceases to be a mythic emissary of god and becomes another character from the cast of cheers). Likewise with magic. Ebberon uses magic to power skyships and trains and makes it a part of everyday life, at which point, it ceases to be magical for me. I'd rather just play a game in the 1920s with steam trains and elephant guns. I prefer to deal with the consequences of magic's presence in the world by increasing its rarity and emphasizing the paranoid an irrational nature of its practitioners to turning it into a kind of technology. When the magicians go in for the cthuluesque side of D&D magic, the magic can seem like the magic of myths and stories. If they go in for the technological side, it seems like technology with a different texture map applied.
 

In my homebrew, I strive to create an internally consistent, relatively dark world
Me too!
Elder-Basilisk said:
that conforms to a lot of the assumptions of western european society broadly between the medieval period and the early reformation era. (No firearms, but I do look to the imperial free cities of the reformation for inspiration, for instance).
Oh. Not me too. Mine is more Charles Dickens meets Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom meets H. P Lovecraft meets Sergio Leone's Old West. I think it's wahoo, but I don't see that as standing in opposition to internal consistency, darkness or grittiness or whatever.
Elder-Basilisk said:
You quickly end up with parties that have nothing in common except that their players are in the same game and no real connection with the rest of the setting except that they are all freaks that are completely disconnected from the rest of the setting. Does any of this make sense? Who cares? Wahoo!
Whuh? Huh? How is that disconnected from the setting? It's not disconnected from the setting if your setting is designed specifically with "wahoo" in it.

Let's look at a concrete example. It's simple, but it's real, and it seems to have been a wahoo! threshold for a lot of gamers, as evidenced by the continued hue and cry over them. Dragonborn and tieflings. Not traditional races. But does that mean that they're disconnected from the rest of the setting in which they appear? That seems to me to be a ludicrous claim. The baseline 4e hint of setting includes past dragonborn empires, dragonborn as related to and associated with dragons, a past tiefling empire, and tieflings as related to and associated with fiends. Fiends and dragons being time-honored game elements already in their own rights.

See, I don't see any reason why the increase in "wahoo! factor" means that suddenly things don't make sense internally. That is, of course, unless your baseline setting assumption is basically "Merry Olde England... except with elves, dwarves and an occasional dragon." But if your wahoo! races and classes are written into the setting as integral elements, then there's no reason why there has to be disconnect, or lack of consistency or "realism." Where by realism what I really mean is verisimilitude.
 

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