Wahoo vs. Traditional

[gizmo33]

You mean the kinds of places PC adventurers go all the time? The kinds of places that DM's either read up on or invent for themselves --because PC adventurers go there all the time?

No. I don't. I mean these settings were unusual, even for Greyhawk modules. Dungeonland was explicitly described as a break from the typical campaign/adventure style.

All I'm saying is that my impression of Greyhawk was formed by reading the setting book and playing the classic modules.

There were laser guns in Steading of the Hill Giant Chief? Lightning-powered trains in The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth? What part of the setting book describes advanced technology or teleportals that are located in every major landmark of the world's cities? Sure, there are magical/technological elements (and teleportals, even in G1), but they're not present to the degree that they are in Eberron, or even the core 4E setting.

To some extent, this is a matter of what you are interested in, so if you like the wahoo stuff then I suppose you can focus more on Expedition to Barrier Peaks, as opposed to the Village of Hommlet. To me, Greyhawk read much more like Fafrd/Grey Mouser than anything Dungeonpunk.

I didn't any time imagining what a hypothetical, non-adventuring dirt farmer thought of the World of Greyhawk (and then using that as my impression of it ).

Well who did you imagine the life of? Was your campaign a series of unconnected adventures that began with a boxed introduction and ended with the division of treasure? Consider the effect that (as someone pointed out above) a system of teleportals would have on the plausibility of an adventure consisting of slogging through a trackless waste to reach a destination. So Gandalf and the group just teleportals their way to Lothlorien and picks up the adventure from there. Whether or not you or your DM considered these possiblities, I think they would be apparent (as would the differences between Greyhawk and Eberron) once you got into trying to make the setting work for adventures.

The World of Greyhawk boxed set contained information on plants, clothing styles, alignments, deities, and political divisions/size of military. What "wahoo" elements did you read about? Was there a single military listed as having companies of pegasus cavalry? Celene might have had some unicorn riders. But an army of robots?

 

[Mournblade94]

I didn't any time imagining what a hypothetical, non-adventuring dirt farmer thought of the World of Greyhawk (and then using that as my impression of it ).

I find that I am always trying to consider what the specific world is like to the absolute average that would inhabit that world. I find it helps give the world meaning.

Some DM's (and I have no idea if you are a DM or exclusively a player) think it helps define the world to the players. I don't really like to have beggars, just be a cutout, I like to think of the human behind him. I do not mean an elaborate backstory of course, but when I make a character liek a beggar, I like to give some stereotype background to the chap... like orfan turned beggar, or family destroyed in the great fire.

For me envisioning what the world is like for them, helps me better define it for the players.

In 7 days to the grave by PAIZO, I spent alot of time introducing PC's to the 'groundlings' that cannot afford the magic to cure themsleves of the plague. It really made the plague all the worse.

I like to start out envisioning my campaign world as 1) what does the average resident see? and then 2) what does an adventurer find or discover?

For the most part I have run Forgotten Realms and my own campaign. I always allowed people to play Dark Elves. All of my players know however that Dark Elves very well may be run out of town... hell a HALF ORC may be run out of town depending where they are. After the Salvatore books I at least let the North be indifferent to the Dark Elves after hearing the legend of Drizzt.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Elder-Basilisk, you seem to be saying the bad guys have to look different from the good guys. But the gnoll in the party could be a civilized gnoll, while those doing the raiding would be savage gnolls. Much as in Space 1889 there are civilized Martians, who are friendly with the Europeans and wild Martians who are presented much more as the opposition for the PCs.

Or there could be an X-Men vibe to it. Present the PCs as struggling against anti-monster prejudice by fighting the evil monsters and trying to show that not all monsters are wicked.

 

[alleynbard]

My problem with Tolkien is perhaps exemplified his the anti-Celtic quote posted above. Tolkien took medieval legends, filled with strange, savage and morally questionable incidents, and tamed them. He made fairy folk, who in medieval stories are interested in humans as illicit lovers (not for lawful matrimony), and as a source of babies to steal, and made them boring and safe.

I like Tolkien and I can agree with this statement. He took rather wild mythic structures and turned them into something watered down in comparison. Which has always been rather disappointing for me despite in my enjoyment of The Lord of the Rings.

 

[alleynbard]

I think that's the biggest difference between eberron and the traditional fantasy worlds of D&D.

The fantastic doesnt actually touch the mundane whereas in eberron, the fantastic affects the mundane...I think that's the biggest difference between a wahoo and a traditional setting.

I think integration of fantasy elements into the mundane is a good benchmark for judging wahoo versus traditional.

 

[Mallus]

I mean these settings were unusual, even for Greyhawk modules.

My memory is that the popular 1e modules ran the gamut from unusual to very unusual (ie Dungeonland, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks).

There were laser guns in Steading of the Hill Giant Chief?

No. Wait, where was Eclavdra introduced? I seem to recall she had a glue-gun rod...

Lightning-powered trains in The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth?

No. But there were enough wacky monsters to make Lieber or Howard go WTF?!

What part of the setting book describes advanced technology or teleportals that are located in every major landmark of the world's cities?

Does the one to Alice's Wonderland count? (I know, I know, that's from a module)

Sure, there are magical/technological elements (and teleportals, even in G1), but they're not present to the degree that they are in Eberron, or even the core 4E setting.

The degree is irrelevant. They exist. In the places adventurers are likely to go. Ergo, they characterize the setting.

... as opposed to the Village of Hommlet.

Ah yes, the bucolic Village of Hommlet, within easy walking of the world's largest evil, underground mega-mall!

To me, Greyhawk read much more like Fafrd/Grey Mouser than anything Dungeonpunk.

Oh I agree that Greyhawk was like Newhon, but with a lot more wahoo.

What "wahoo" elements did you read about?

You mean in addition to the demigods with six-shooters and magical fire extinguishers and assorted nutty things from the modules? Just because there's information about the local flora (and the amount of bauxite annually exported from Verbobonc) doesn't remove the more wahoo material.

But an army of robots?

You don't need an entire army of robots in order to give a reader the impression that they ain't in Middle Earth (or Hyperborea) anymore, Toto. Besides, there was one Apparatus of Kwalish. Who knows? There might be more. Apparatuses are sneaky like that.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Hmm... I am wondering if in this debate it is less, "wahoo" that those that like "traditional" dislike (using the terms as used in this thread). But more a dislike for stuff like New Weird (definition from wikipedia):

New Weird is a type of urban, secondary-world fiction that subverts the romanticized ideas about place found in traditional fantasy, largely by choosing realistic, complex real-world models as the jumping off point for creation of settings that may combine elements of both science fiction and fantasy. New Weird has a visceral, in-the-moment quality that often uses elements of surreal or transgressive horror for its tone, style, and effects — in combination with the stimulus of influence from New Wave writers or their proxies (including also such forebears as Mervyn Peake and the French/English Decadents). New Weird fictions are acutely aware of the modern world, even if in disguise, but not always overtly political. As part of this awareness of the modern world, New Weird relies for its visionary power on a "surrender to the weird" that isn't, for example, hermetically sealed in a haunted house on the moors or in a cave in Antarctica. The "surrender" (or "belief") of the writer can take many forms, some of them even involving the use of postmodern techniques that do not undermine the surface reality of the text.

The bolded aspect being the most important part.

 

[Mallus]

I find that I am always trying to consider what the specific world is like to the absolute average that would inhabit that world. I find it helps give the world meaning.

Sure. But that's not what I was talking about. I was saying that we see a campaign world from our adventuring character's perspectives.

Talking about how mundane the World of Greyhawk looks to a peasant farmer is silly. A D&D player is going to experience the World of Greyhawk through the eyes of someone who's fought the Slave Lords in their Aerie, visited the Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, and then died in the Tomb of Horrors.

Which has nothing to do with trying to add depth to minor NPC's.

Some DM's (and I have no idea if you are a DM or exclusively a player).

I've been playing more lately, but I usually DM (homebrews).

 

[gizmo33]

My memory is that the popular 1e modules ran the gamut from unusual to very unusual (ie Dungeonland, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks).

These are arguably two of the most extreme modules in this area. By far. "Barrier Peaks" was, importantly, set in a space ship that crashed from *somewhere else*. The technology was *explicity* not native to Greyhawk and these items appeared in no other modules. There are many more modules set in Greyhawk than the mere two that you feel make the case for the whole setting.

No. Wait, where was Eclavdra introduced? I seem to recall she had a glue-gun rod...

It was not a "gun" by what IMO is a reasonable definition of the word. It's a magic wand with a glue type effect. A crossbow would be a "gun" by your rather convenient definition of the word. If magic items in a setting constitute "wahoo" then IMO the term is not useful for describing fantasy settings.

No. But there were enough wacky monsters to make Lieber or Howard go WTF?!

Right, it was a DnD game, so dungeons full of monsters are the norm. If that's "wahoo" then, again, what exactly is the point? One cannot distinguish between Eberron and Greyhawk because if you put a space-ship-shaped clay model in a dungeon all of the sudden you might as well have a lighning-rail system over your entire world?

Does the one to Alice's Wonderland count? (I know, I know, that's from a module)

And, in fact, the same one of two modules that you keep using as an example of the whole. And again, a module that *explicitly* says that it was designed as a break from the "normal campaigning" in the game. What exactly do you think Gygax meant if Dungeonland was the "typical" player experience?

The degree is irrelevant. They exist. In the places adventurers are likely to go. Ergo, they characterize the setting.

So Alaska once had a daytime temperature of 80 degrees, ergo, it's climate is no different than that of Bermuda? IMO you have to characterize the setting based on a generalization on *all* of the data points, if you really want to take 2 of many modules (and nothing in the boxed set) and extrapolate this, you can (because Greyhawk was designed to be customized by the individual DM) but to claim something universal about the setting IMO is not on solid ground.

Ah yes, the bucolic Village of Hommlet, within easy walking of the world's largest evil, underground mega-mall!

It's not a shopping mall, the comparison is funny but equivocates. Specifically, it's a fortress of evil with some connections to the outer planes. This is not the same thing as an *actual* shopping mall with teleportals to the various outer planes, which I wouldn't be surprised to find in Eberron.

Oh I agree that Greyhawk was like Newhon, but with a lot more wahoo.

How do you measure that? How many points did you give the magical merchant in Newhon that was selling dangerous stuff to Fafrd and co? Or their trip to the lands of the dead?

You mean in addition to the demigods with six-shooters and magical fire extinguishers and assorted nutty things from the modules? Just because there's information about the local flora (and the amount of bauxite annually exported from Verbobonc) doesn't remove the more wahoo material.

It doesn't remove it, it just isn't there. Fire extinguisher? If that's based on some similar reasoning to your "glue gun" example earlier, then I'd say extremely creative vocabulary might support you here. I'll call a longsword +1 a "magical slicing contraption" and shed no light on this issue.

You don't need an entire army of robots in order to give a reader the impression that they ain't in Middle Earth (or Hyperborea) anymore, Toto. Besides, there was one Apparatus of Kwalish. Who knows? There might be more. Apparatuses are sneaky like that.

The original DMG gives no indication that the Appratus is unique. Again, if you're willing to take 2 modules and ignore the entire rest of the set then I suppose you can see whatever you want. I could claim that Greyhawk consists entirely of intellgent bunny rabbits based on the same reasoning.

 

[Doug McCrae]

If magic items in a setting constitute "wahoo" then IMO the term is not useful for describing fantasy settings.

I think you're wrong here. Wahoo resides in the weird, the outre. Tech in a magic world is weird, yeah, and hence wahoo, but magic is weird too, both from our perspective and that of the world's inhabitants.

A +1 sword is barely wahoo. A +1 sword that glows is a little bit wahoo. Stormbringer, Mjolnir and the Ark of the Covenant are all substantially wahoo, particularly if they are all owned by one PC.

Right, it was a DnD game, so dungeons full of monsters are the norm. If that's "wahoo" then, again, what exactly is the point?

Well D&D is more outre than the typical fantasy novel. There are a lot more monsters per adventure. A lot more magic items. In short, D&D is more wahoo than most, maybe all, fantasy fiction.