• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Waibel's Rule of Interpretation (aka "How to Interpret the Rules")

The only CORRECT interpretation is the one I say! :eek::cool::p The sooner the rest of the world gets that, the sooner we can all sit down and have fun...and end all fantasy rpg forum arguments everywhere. :lol: heheheh. [Seliousry though, nice chart. :) ]

The only CORRECT interpretation is the one I say!
:eek::cool::p
The sooner the rest of the world gets that, the sooner we can all sit down and have fun...and end all fantasy rpg forum arguments everywhere.
:lol:
heheheh.

[Seliousry though, nice chart. :) ]
 

landryan

First Post
The Manticore Solution

Or, another time, I bombed the party with a manticore. I love manticores. One of my favourite critters. A player piped up and complained that I was using a manticore in a completely wrong terrain - manticores in 2e were desert monsters and we were in a temperate forest. Now, he was 100% right, but, I stuck to my guns. It wound up being a rather lengthy argument at the table, so it stuck in my mind. I often wonder if I had of just admitted that I screwed up and skipped the encounter, if it wouldn't have been a better solution.

DM: "You enter the forest, and you see... a manticore!!!"

Player 1: "That can't be right, manticore's terrain type is desert, and this is a forest! No fair!"

DM: "Oooops, you're right! The manticore, realizing he is an ecological impossibility promptly morphs into... hmmm... no lets see... something more appropriate... BINGO! An Ancient Green Dragon! Temperate Forest, right Player 1?"

Player 1: Oh. Erm, yes. That's true.

*Player 1 Character promptly slain by rest of party*
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Celebrim

Legend
Maybe Hussar is referring to my posts, where I implied that if a player is pushing the argument that the DM is wrong because there is a manticore in a forest and they won't let it go, he or she is a bad player. And I stand by that, because not only is it the DM's world, but nothing about having a manticore in a forest triggers the unreasonable flags.

I also agree that the player that objects to manticores in a forest and won't let it go is a bad player, but my reasoning is slightly different than yours. It's not merely the player found that unreasonable that bothers me. It's their perspective on unreasonable information makes it almost impossible to run an interesting game.

The problem I have with the scenario it shows a player who clearly prefers to metagame than to game. This is a player who has a highly developed ability to deal with problems at the metagame level, but no ability to play a character. As such, I would prefer ask that player after the session was over to leave and find a different DM to torment, because that player is a waste, having developed such bad habits as a gamer, that it would be almost impossible and perfectly torturous as a DM to try to teach them how to play. I've got no use for players that have never developed even basic skills despite being highly experienced.

The following things really trouble me:

a) First, the player relied on player knowledge rather than PC knowledge and didn't even attempt to discover what her player might know but took it for granted that anything the player knew was applicable. The player knows that the MM says that manticores are found in deserts, but the player doesn't seem bothered about acting on this knowledge. The first question that needs to be addressed is, "What does my character know about manticores? Is it reasonable that my character would find this unusual?" Instead, the player shows zero nuance of this nature, happily metagaming away without the slightest embarrassment.

b) As such, the player's first recourse was to verify and question the metagame out of game rather than questioning the game in game. There are all sort of things that a skilled player might consider upon seeing a manticore in a forest.

a) Something big must be happening in the desert to get manticores to flee from their normal habitat!
b) Since this is a forest and manticores are only found in deserts, this must be an unusual subspecies. Be on the look out for unusual powers. Don't take anything for granted.
c) Since this is a forest and manticores are usually found in deserts, something must have brought it here.
d) Since this is a forest and manticores are usually found in deserts, this might be a shapechanged creature.
e) Since this is a forest and manticores are usually found in deserts, this might be an illusion.
f) In this game world, manticores aren't in fact desert creatures.
g) The DM forgot that in 2e, manticores are exclusively desert creatures, but so what? Why should I care?

If it turned out that the DM just made an oversight and did not wish to recover by making up an explanation on the spot, then it's up to the DM to admit, "Err... I apologize, but I made an oversight and put the manticore in the wrong terrain. I didn't intend that to be a big clue of such singular importance that it would be worth following up on. Please just assume that while odd, it's not that important." Even then, it would be incredibly rude to demand a retcon rather than a handwave. I find it pretty incomprehensible that someone's enjoyment of a game depends to any large extent on manticores only showing up in the desert. That isn't even a common fantasy trope, to say nothing of trope violation is often interesting in and of itself. Learning that things are different than I expected them to be and the most common stereotypes don't apply is often fun. I shudder to think what sort of player doesn't like being surprised or having any of their expectations overturned.

It's certainly not up to the player to tell the DM what ought to be happening in his world. The existence of a manticore of great size and ferocity in a mountain pass was established in my game world by 1987. I don't intend to kick it out my own imaginings and ideas simply because some one writes something limiting in a book. But if I'm a player in a DM's game were manticores only occur in the desert with near religious rigor, then I'm ok with that as well. It's his world.

c) The player evidenced zero trust in the DM. To even question this out of game is to seek out of game clues for the explained behavior. For all the player knows, the DM is well aware that manticores don't occur in forests and has made this a major part of the in game scenario and is expecting the players to follow up on this discrepancy in game. By demanding out of game that the DM give an out of game explanation to the player, rather than an in game explanation to the PC (assuming they qualify for one), the player has essentially overturned the game. They've demanded the DM admit there is a reason and therefore that the appearance of the manticore is in fact important to the plot and so should be treated as such (or conversely that it isn't and so doesn't need to be treated with importance). But the DM is under zero obligation to reveal his secrets out of game just because one player is confused. Since the DM is the secret keeper, it is not only incumbent upon them to keep the secrets so that all the players can enjoy discovering them in due time, but also their privilege to enjoy the moment when the secret is legitimately revealed and the honor they deserve when they create good and interesting secrets. The player demanding an out of game explanation might as well have responded by taking their hand and flinging the pieces of a board game off the table and across the floor, and have been equally rude and aggressive. Whatever carefully constructed plans (if any) the DM might have are in danger of being dashed irrevocably. To stick to their guns in this situation and demand removal of the manticore (as if even in the real world animals aren't occasionally found far from their normal habitats) is so ridiculous I'd be hard pressed to deal with the problem privately and not respond to the rudeness by suggesting on the spot that if the canonical ecology of manticores is so important to them that perhaps they ought to find a DM that shares their love of canon.

It's not like Hussar was having rocs being encountered underwater or something.

And if he was, so what? All the above still applies. Who brought the rocs underwater? How are the breathing? What does my character know about rocs? Do some rocs have the lifestyle of penguins, or cormorants, or pelicans? Do I have the same picture of the environment that the DM has? Perhaps I ought to ask him to recap the situation again. All of that ought to be considered before you tentatively and tactfully ask, "You do remember we are underwater, right?"
 
Last edited by a moderator:



I don't think it's nearly as much of an outlier you think it is. Many of us share the same experiences. Ironically, you're doing exactly what he was warning against--acting like your own experience is somehow the norm. while you're not outright saying his (or mine) experiences don't happen, you are waving them away as so unlikely as to not be important or carry any weight. You're also engaging in a pretty blatant strawman.

isn't that the same thing being done by both sides... I have been told by 3 different posters that my style of play is provably less then theres...
 

Ranes

Adventurer
The following things really trouble me:

a) First, the player relied on player knowledge rather than PC knowledge and didn't even attempt to discover what her player might know but took it for granted that anything the player knew was applicable. The player knows that the MM says that manticores are found in deserts, but the player doesn't seem bothered about acting on this knowledge. The first question that needs to be addressed is, "What does my character know about manticores? Is it reasonable that my character would find this unusual?" Instead, the player shows zero nuance of this nature, happily metagaming away without the slightest embarrassment...

b) Since this is a forest and manticores are only found in deserts, this must be an unusual subspecies. Be on the look out for unusual powers. Don't take anything for granted.
c) Since this is a forest and manticores are usually found in deserts, something must have brought it here.
d) Since this is a forest and manticores are usually found in deserts, this might be a shapechanged creature.
e) Since this is a forest and manticores are usually found in deserts, this might be an illusion.
f) In this game world, manticores aren't in fact desert creatures.
g) The DM forgot that in 2e, manticores are exclusively desert creatures, but so what? Why should I care?

I agree with all of this (and the rest) and I'd simply put it like this. If I inadvertently put a manicure (manticore but I'm leaving in auto-correct's handiwork, for the lulz) in a temperate forest, I want players whose default response is: "Oh, manticores live here in the DM's world! Didn't see that coming. Right…"

That's it. End of. After the session, if a player says," You know, about those MANICURES…" That's fine. I'll just wonder how my laptop's auto-correct got into their head.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
isn't that the same thing being done by both sides... I have been told by 3 different posters that my style of play is provably less then theres...

And it is. There's a difference between "this is how it is", which is what you've done, and "your experience doesn't make it universally true because you don't seem to be in the majority as much as you think you are."

Now, if Mistwell or myself had said that gaming groups won't have problems with each other because we haven't, or that pretty much all players don't care about rules, then you'd have an equivalency to what you've and manbearcat have claimed. But we haven't. In both of our cases, all we've really done is to counter your claims with "no, that's not universally true because we don't share that experience."
 

And it is. There's a difference between "this is how it is", which is what you've done, and "your experience doesn't make it universally true because you don't seem to be in the majority as much as you think you are."

Now, if Mistwell or myself had said that gaming groups won't have problems with each other because we haven't, or that pretty much all players don't care about rules, then you'd have an equivalency to what you've and manbearcat have claimed. But we haven't. In both of our cases, all we've really done is to counter your claims with "no, that's not universally true because we don't share that experience."

and yet my universal claim was not that at all... mine was that all players buy in to games and trust there DMs so much, some DMs have more or less trust, some players have larger or smaller thresholds. SOme people run games with people who are in enough synch with them tha it rarely if ever comes up. The problems need to be addressed in such way as to understand that each group is different... my theory (all I have put forward) is call currency of trust.

My theory accounts for your game, my game, and the worst games I have ever seen all in one....
 

I agree with all of this (and the rest) and I'd simply put it like this. If I inadvertently put a manicure (manticore but I'm leaving in auto-correct's handiwork, for the lulz) in a temperate forest, I want players whose default response is: "Oh, manticores live here in the DM's world! Didn't see that coming. Right…"

That's it. End of. After the session, if a player says," You know, about those MANICURES…" That's fine. I'll just wonder how my laptop's auto-correct got into their head.

I like that method too, unless it is a major issue to that player for what ever reason... now I have a hard time imagining why maticore living there would... but that's me. I would be more then willing to hear the why from the player.
 

Hussar

Legend
And yet you still describe this as a problem needing a solution.

Where? Where did I say a single thing about a problem needing a solution. I've been extremely careful only to talk about my own preferences and not say a single thing about how others play their games.
 

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top