Waibel's Rule of Interpretation (aka "How to Interpret the Rules")

The only CORRECT interpretation is the one I say! :eek::cool::p The sooner the rest of the world gets that, the sooner we can all sit down and have fun...and end all fantasy rpg forum arguments everywhere. :lol: heheheh. [Seliousry though, nice chart. :) ]

The only CORRECT interpretation is the one I say!
:eek::cool::p
The sooner the rest of the world gets that, the sooner we can all sit down and have fun...and end all fantasy rpg forum arguments everywhere.
:lol:
heheheh.

[Seliousry though, nice chart. :) ]
 

Celebrim

Legend
GM: You jump out of light space. Suddenly an alert sounds. The pilot you hired turns and says to you, "What the...? Aw, we've come out of hyperspace into a meteor shower. Some kind of asteroid collision. It's not on any of the charts.."
Player #1: That's impossible. Alderan is a class 1 system according the Planetary Guide. It's been inhabited and the source of regular trade for thousands of years. There are no uncharted asteroid fields in the Alderan system, and the system authority would ensure no large asteroids randomly collided with each other.
GM: Han repeats, "I know that, but that doesn't change the fact that the Falcon is getting hit by rocks."
Player #1: I was speaking out of character! There is no way the Falcon could be getting hit by uncharted debris in the Alderaan system. The system is a class one inhabited system with faster than light space flight extending back to before the founding the republic. There are no uncharted obstacles, so we should have to face some random ill thought out hazard just to make the 'adventure' more exciting.
GM: Maybe there are circumstances you haven't considered. Why don't you just trying role playing.
Player #2: Yeah, maybe this Han guy screwed up. He seems cocky. Maybe he's not as good as he thinks he is. How do we even know this is the Alderaan system?
Player #1: No, that's impossible. Remember, I double checked his figures in the navigational computer before we made the hyperjump, remember and got a hard success. There is no way he could have screwed up so badly that he missed the whole system. This is Alderaan alright, unless the DM is pulling some other screw the players trick.
Player #2: I ask this Han fellow, "What's going on?"
GM: Han confirms 'Luke's' appraisal. He says, "The kid's right. Our position is correct. This is Alderaan alright, except... no, Alderaan!"
Player #1: What do you mean? Where is it?
GM: Han says sardonically, "That's what I'm trying to tell you, kid. It ain't there. It's been totally blown away."
Player #1: What? That's impossible. How?
Player #2: I bet it's been destroyed by the Empire.
GM: Han says incredulously, "The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the whole planet. It'd take a thousand ships with more fire power than I've..."
Player #1: Exactly. That's what I was saying. The entire Imperial fleet together couldn't just blast a planet way. It's impossible. Sure, assuming they could blast through planetary level shields - which they can't - they could turn into a cherry red glowing ball of liquid with sufficient global bombardment, the Empire just doesn't have the ability to blow up a whole planet. If they had that ability, they could have done away with the Rebellion years ago just by blowing up the sympathetic worlds. Besides the fact that the Starship Sourcebook clearly states that blowing up planets is impossible, the whole point of this setting is that the worlds backing the rebellion are largely safe from planetary attack. If a planet could be blown up, it would undermine the entire basis of the setting. Bye bye campaign.
GM: While you are debating the Empire's firepower, another alarm goes off. Han says, "We have another ship coming in."
Player #2: Maybe they know what happened. Can I roll sensor to determine the type of craft? *Dice Clatter*
GM: Sure. Ok, you are able to determine it's an Imperial Tie fighter.
Player #2 (to table): It's an Imperial fighter!
Player #1: No, no. That's impossible. It doesn't have a hyper drive, so it couldn't have followed us. There are no Imperial garrisons in the Alderaan system, so it could have only come from cruiser. And if it had been attached to a cruiser then we would have seen the cruiser on scope even before we saw the Tie Fighter. I demand a retcon. If we'd seen a cruiser in the system, I would have started preparing for another hyper-jump immediately upon entering the system. Either you forgot to mention the cruiser, forgot that detecting a cruiser even at range would be easier than detecting a star fighter, or else this Tie should be here at all.
GM: Han agrees, there are no imperial bases around here. He doesn't know where the Tie Fighter came from either.
Player #1: Why do you keep telling me about what Han does. I'm not role playing with Han. I'm asking you OOC for a retcon on the asteroid field, the missing planet, and this stupid short range tie fighter. None of this should be happening.
GM: Seriously, just play the game. What do you want to do about the Tie Fighter? It appears to be racing away from you in a big hurry as if trying to evade you. You'll have to act fast if you want to catch it.
Player #1: I'm not doing anything about a Tie fighter that shouldn't be here in the first place, an asteroid field that shouldn't exist, or an impossibly blown up planet. This campaign is just messed up. Clearly you didn't spend enough time reading the source material.
GM: Seriously, out of character, to you the player, I've all read the same books you have multiple times. None of your objections would be inappropriate if raised in character, as the character themselves would possibly be just as confused by all this weird stuff. However, I'm not going to answer your objections out of character. Meanwhile, that Tie Fighter is getting away. You going to do something about it or not? Han seems inclined to chase it.

And you thought 'Luke' was whiny in the script...
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Hussar

Legend
Which is all fine Celebrim, if I had, in fact, placed that Manticore intentionally with all those questions you asked earlier answered. But, as I said earlier, I didn't even know that manticores lived in deserts. I placed the manticore there (or the roc underwater) and I was 100% WRONG.

Why does that fact keep getting ignored? Had I had some grand plan about why manticores were appearing outside of their favoured habitat, then fine and dandy. But, the player was 100% right. For your story above to be the same as my example, Alderaan would still be there.

THERE WAS NO REASON WHY THE MANTICORE WAS OUTSIDE ITS FAVORED TERRAIN. I WAS WRONG.

There, is that clear enough for everyone? I placed the manticore there completely out of ignorance of the favoured terrain of a manticore. Not only that, I couldn't give a rat's petoot what the Monster Manual said because I simply do not care. I never bothered to read the Monster Manual. Heck, when people started to bitch about 4e putting Blue Dragons on the coast, I actually had to go back and read the older Monster Manuals because I had no idea that blue dragons live in deserts. Didn't know and certainly didn't ever care.

But, the player DID care. He DID know. HE WAS RIGHT!!!

Now, I steam rolled over the player and ignored his objections and played exactly the way Steel Dragons or Mistwell or others have advocated in this thread. And I hated it and it made for a terrible game. So, I don't do that anymore. I will change, fold, spindle or maul just about anything in the game to accommodate the players. I expect my players to challenge me all the time and I welcome it. I WANT them to be so invested in the game that they would bring knowledge like this to the table. FANTASTIC.

Again, this is 100% my own table. It is not something I expect at anyone else's table. But, at my table, if you know something, speak up and we'll talk about it. Far better that than the alternative, IMO.
 

Which is all fine Celebrim, if I had, in fact, placed that Manticore intentionally with all those questions you asked earlier answered. But, as I said earlier, I didn't even know that manticores lived in deserts. I placed the manticore there (or the roc underwater) and I was 100% WRONG.

Why does that fact keep getting ignored? Had I had some grand plan about why manticores were appearing outside of their favoured habitat, then fine and dandy. But, the player was 100% right. For your story above to be the same as my example, Alderaan would still be there.

THERE WAS NO REASON WHY THE MANTICORE WAS OUTSIDE ITS FAVORED TERRAIN. I WAS WRONG.

There, is that clear enough for everyone? I placed the manticore there completely out of ignorance of the favoured terrain of a manticore. Not only that, I couldn't give a rat's petoot what the Monster Manual said because I simply do not care. I never bothered to read the Monster Manual. Heck, when people started to bitch about 4e putting Blue Dragons on the coast, I actually had to go back and read the older Monster Manuals because I had no idea that blue dragons live in deserts. Didn't know and certainly didn't ever care.

But, the player DID care. He DID know. HE WAS RIGHT!!!

Now, I steam rolled over the player and ignored his objections and played exactly the way Steel Dragons or Mistwell or others have advocated in this thread. And I hated it and it made for a terrible game. So, I don't do that anymore. I will change, fold, spindle or maul just about anything in the game to accommodate the players. I expect my players to challenge me all the time and I welcome it. I WANT them to be so invested in the game that they would bring knowledge like this to the table. FANTASTIC.

Again, this is 100% my own table. It is not something I expect at anyone else's table. But, at my table, if you know something, speak up and we'll talk about it. Far better that than the alternative, IMO.


My games run somewhere between mist well and yours...

I like twists and mysteries... and sometimes they are well planed (well in my mind) and sometimes spur of the moment. I love players questioning me... "Wait, why would a white dragon be in the dessert?" if it was my mistake it might be "I ment blue sorry"

I make changes on purpose all the time and have no issue explaining that... but everyone makes mistakes and I expect my players to call me on it...

((((Dragon example, for years all dragons I ran had cone breath weapons... blue dragons did cone of lighting, black cone of acid.... it started as a mistake, until a PC called me on it... the blue dragon is a line. I went back read the rules and didn't have to fight... the Player was right...)))
 

BryonD

Hero
Where? Where did I say a single thing about a problem needing a solution. I've been extremely careful only to talk about my own preferences and not say a single thing about how others play their games.
You specifically mentioned losing a player over a ring dispute and a long debate over the manticore issue.
I'll plead guilty to folding that into the larger context of the conversation. But you have taken a side that fits with the preference of people who complain about this problem and you have provided two examples of that problem negatively impacting your game.

By the nature of my solution, I do not have two examples of the problem to show you.

As mentioned already, I have seen the potential for this problem. Any group will have misunderstandings or differences in expectation. But I don't ever have extended debates over it that derail play and I've never lost a player.
 

BryonD

Hero
Which is all fine Celebrim, if I had, in fact, placed that Manticore intentionally with all those questions you asked earlier answered. But, as I said earlier, I didn't even know that manticores lived in deserts. I placed the manticore there (or the roc underwater) and I was 100% WRONG.
Good DMing 101 would still say: Take the mistake and make something AWESOME out of it.
It would also say: Don't let a player drag down the game over a silly mistake.


It seems to be going over your head that we get it. We understand that in this specific case it was a mistake. It doesn't matter.
 

Ranes

Adventurer
Good DMing 101 would still say: Take the mistake and make something AWESOME out of it.
It would also say: Don't let a player drag down the game over a silly mistake.

It should. And its companion volume, Good Playing 101 would have the corollaries: 'Don't assume a mistake' and 'Give the DM a chance to turn a mistake into Something Awesome'.
 

Hussar

Legend
You specifically mentioned losing a player over a ring dispute and a long debate over the manticore issue.
I'll plead guilty to folding that into the larger context of the conversation. But you have taken a side that fits with the preference of people who complain about this problem and you have provided two examples of that problem negatively impacting your game.

By the nature of my solution, I do not have two examples of the problem to show you.

As mentioned already, I have seen the potential for this problem. Any group will have misunderstandings or differences in expectation. But I don't ever have extended debates over it that derail play and I've never lost a player.

And fantastic for you. You are a better DM than me. Happy now?

Good DMing 101 would still say: Take the mistake and make something AWESOME out of it.
It would also say: Don't let a player drag down the game over a silly mistake.


It seems to be going over your head that we get it. We understand that in this specific case it was a mistake. It doesn't matter.

I realize it doesn't matter to you. For you, you play a game where the DM's view is law. I would loathe your game. I wouldn't play at your table. Not because it's bad, but because it's bad for me.

However, I'm not the one who keeps trying to convince others that my way is the best way. You are. You have repeatedly tried to convince me that your way is better - "consensus games lead to milquetoast games" I believe was the exact comment. "I've never lost a player" is another. Sorry, BryonD, but, if I made the mistake of sitting at your table, I'd leave after one or two sessions. Again, not because you run a bad game but because I would be a terrible fit for your table.

Fortunately, I have a fantastic group currently and this is simply an issue that doesn't come up. Not that we don't debate rules stuff, we do. But, because the entire group is engaged in trying to make the game fun for everyone, no one is left holding the bag when things go sideways. Everyone is pro-active. Which, from the descriptions of you and Steel Dragons have given, you would not appreciate. SD talks about being firm about not changing his setting to accommodate player concepts. Again, totally fine. I believe that you and he both have a pretty firm idea of the experience you want to present your players with and don't want a lot of changes interfering with that experience.

It's not to my taste. I'm far closer to GM4PG in that if I find I'm mistaken, I don't try to cover it up and pretend that I meant to do it all along. I simply admit to fallibility and work with the group to find a way to smooth over the rough edges. I expect my players to come to the table ready to write and rewrite large swaths of any campaign I bring to the table. I don't expect my campaign setting to survive first contact with the players. I expect to get out the magic typewriter ten minutes after character generation begins and start rewriting ideas from the ground up.

And, as a player, i expect the same thing from my DM's. I do not want to passively consume, or simply react to whatever the DM has in mind. Again, not that there is anything wrong with that. That's perfectly fine for groups that like that. But, again, not to my taste. If I come to the table with a concept, with my current group, I know that the DM will meet me more than half way with whatever concept I bring. And everyone else too. Thus, we have a 5e sorcerer in our Dragonlance game, and a minotaur bard. Despite the fact that neither bards nor sorcerers fit with Dragonlance (at least, certainly not 5e versions of those classes). Granted, my human fighter wasn't exactly a stretch to fit into the game, but, I'm going to ask if I can bring in 4e style retraining rules and convert my fighter to a paladin over the next few levels. Again, Dragonlance doesn't even HAVE paladins.

Yet, I'm fairly confident that there will be no problems.
 

BryonD

Hero
And fantastic for you. You are a better DM than me. Happy now?
You asked a question and I answered it.

I realize it doesn't matter to you. For you, you play a game where the DM's view is law. I would loathe your game. I wouldn't play at your table. Not because it's bad, but because it's bad for me.

However, I'm not the one who keeps trying to convince others that my way is the best way. You are. You have repeatedly tried to convince me that your way is better - "consensus games lead to milquetoast games" I believe was the exact comment. "I've never lost a player" is another. Sorry, BryonD, but, if I made the mistake of sitting at your table, I'd leave after one or two sessions. Again, not because you run a bad game but because I would be a terrible fit for your table.
I doubt it. But ok.

Fortunately, I have a fantastic group currently and this is simply an issue that doesn't come up. Not that we don't debate rules stuff, we do. But, because the entire group is engaged in trying to make the game fun for everyone, no one is left holding the bag when things go sideways. Everyone is pro-active. Which, from the descriptions of you and Steel Dragons have given, you would not appreciate. SD talks about being firm about not changing his setting to accommodate player concepts. Again, totally fine. I believe that you and he both have a pretty firm idea of the experience you want to present your players with and don't want a lot of changes interfering with that experience.
I'm constantly shocked by how far off the mark you interpret things.
My player's are MASSIVELY pro-active. (some more than others, of course). I did specifically cover this.
But you seem to be selectively reading to ignore that.
It's not to my taste. I'm far closer to GM4PG in that if I find I'm mistaken, I don't try to cover it up and pretend that I meant to do it all along. I simply admit to fallibility and work with the group to find a way to smooth over the rough edges.
Again, just WOW.
Who said anything about "covering it up?"
That is a really sad perspective.

I expect my players to come to the table ready to write and rewrite large swaths of any campaign I bring to the table. I don't expect my campaign setting to survive first contact with the players. I expect to get out the magic typewriter ten minutes after character generation begins and start rewriting ideas from the ground up.

And, as a player, i expect the same thing from my DM's. I do not want to passively consume, or simply react to whatever the DM has in mind. Again, not that there is anything wrong with that. That's perfectly fine for groups that like that. But, again, not to my taste. If I come to the table with a concept, with my current group, I know that the DM will meet me more than half way with whatever concept I bring. And everyone else too. Thus, we have a 5e sorcerer in our Dragonlance game, and a minotaur bard. Despite the fact that neither bards nor sorcerers fit with Dragonlance (at least, certainly not 5e versions of those classes). Granted, my human fighter wasn't exactly a stretch to fit into the game, but, I'm going to ask if I can bring in 4e style retraining rules and convert my fighter to a paladin over the next few levels. Again, Dragonlance doesn't even HAVE paladins.

Yet, I'm fairly confident that there will be no problems.
All I can say it is obvious to me that you truly have no idea what you are missing out on.

So be it.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Which is all fine Celebrim, if I had, in fact, placed that Manticore intentionally with all those questions you asked earlier answered. But, as I said earlier, I didn't even know that manticores lived in deserts. I placed the manticore there (or the roc underwater) and I was 100% WRONG...Why does that fact keep getting ignored?

First, I'm not even sure that is possible for a DM to be wrong about this. Like the treasure type, the number appearing, the % in lair, the alignment, and even the HD of the monster, all of those things in the entry represent only the most common examples and are no more than guidelines for DMs intended to help them craft their campaign but which are not to be expected by either the designers or the players to be completely binding. It is after all only 'favored terrain'. If most manticores live in the desert, it doesn't imply they all do.

Secondly, you are missing the point. The biggest problem with the player behavior is that they actually never considered whether or not they had any way to evaluate whether or not the DM was wrong, but considered it their prerogative to question it anyway. In this case, it happened that you hadn't considered the favored terrain before placing the monster, but they had no way of knowing that. The biggest problem was that a player with actual skill as a player would probably have never been able to discover you'd made a mistake, but would instead have been left with a minor mystery - "Why is there a manticore in the forest?" You as the GM would have only been able to pick up on the player confusion through character activity, and only been able to infer that the player thought that manticore's were unusual in the forest by the sort of propositions that the player was making on behalf of the character.

Had I had some grand plan about why manticores were appearing outside of their favoured habitat, then fine and dandy. But, the player was 100% right. For your story above to be the same as my example, Alderaan would still be there.

What my example is intended to show is the player failing to engage the setting, the character, or actually to even play. This is a player that literally knows everything about RPGs but is repeatedly demonstrating that the don't know how to play an RPG. They have a lot of experience manipulating RPG metagames, although even then, not artfully or respectfully but crudely and rudely, but never really show any desire to actually play the RPG. For this purpose, it really doesn't matter if the GM has it all thought out, or he's just making this up as he goes by the seat of his pants. While I greatly prefer the sort of game where the GM uses forethought and preparation to construct a game, that is a preference and its not objectively bad to run a game with a different paradigm - not the least of which because all game styles require a certain amount of improvisation.

If a player is fishing to determine whether the DM is improving or using prepared ideas, that itself is poor play on the part of the player. (And it's poor play on the part of the GM if you can as a player actually reliably detect the difference. Good improv feels and seems a solid as prepared text, because otherwise it's very hard to avoid the game being disrupted by metagaming. This is particularly important when mysteries are to be solved. For example, you don't want the gardener to be revealed as having no information of importance and no relation to a crime because it's clear that the gardener is an unnamed PC you forgot to make notes on.) In other words, good players aren't trying to trip the GM up in the metagame because they want to experience the joy of the game itself and have learned to value and enjoy the game itself. The 'Luke' player in my example, just can't. He can't let go of the metagame. It's probably for that hypothetical player, the whole of the game. And as a DM, with a player that only enjoys the metagame, you are deprived of one the greatest joys of GMing - watching your players play. Not only that, but in all my experience, a person that defaults to metagame play also defaults to manipulating you as a person in order to solve problems, rather than defaulting to manipulating the shared imaginary space. And I have to say, dealing with a person that is all the time trying to bully me, brow beat me, rules lawyer me, cheat the dice, read me, get me to explain IC things OOC, wheedle me, conjole me, and so forth is just plain tiring.


There, is that clear enough for everyone? I placed the manticore there completely out of ignorance of the favoured terrain of a manticore. Not only that, I couldn't give a rat's petoot what the Monster Manual said because I simply do not care. I never bothered to read the Monster Manual. Heck, when people started to bitch about 4e putting Blue Dragons on the coast, I actually had to go back and read the older Monster Manuals because I had no idea that blue dragons live in deserts. Didn't know and certainly didn't ever care.

But, the player DID care. He DID know. HE WAS RIGHT!!!

No, he was wrong. If you the DM don't care what the Monster Manual says about manticore habitat, it's simply not operable. Manticores live wherever you want them to live. That's the actual rules. Favored terrain isn't a binding contract. It isn't steam rolling a player to say he found a manticore in a forest. It would be steam rolling a player to tell him he hated manticores and therefore had to fight the manticore, or anything else to do with his player. But an attempt to tell a DM that Manticores aren't found in forests is steam rolling a DM, and a DM resisting that is not rolling over his players but just avoiding being rolled over.

Again, the problem here isn't players speaking up. I welcome players speaking up. The problem is in this case, the player has no way to evaluate that this is an oversight and even if they suspect it might be an oversight, a skilled player's first instincts are going to be to determine if it makes sense for some unknown reason. A monster located outside its favored terrain isn't 'wrong' and certainly not '100% wrong'.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Celebrim

Legend
Just to clarify, when I talk about 'good play' and 'poor play', I don't want it to sound like I in fact have this all down and perfect. Both as a GM and a player I make mistakes and fail to play the game up to the best levels I'm aware of. The judgments I'm making regarding what is good play and what is poor play involve lessons learned from mistakes I've made, as well as observations made about how others play and what worked to make the game enjoyable. Sometimes, indeed quite often, the lessons on what to avoid and the lessons on what to strive to achieve came from the very same player or GM. One of the greatest lessons on preparation and improvisation came from playing as a player in a session where the DM was successfully seamlessly mixing both, and the joy and wonder attained by me as a player to find what I thought was pure color invented to handle an unusual proposition by me was actually well prepared clues to the main thought. Staying ahead of the players is the ideal. It is of course not always possible. But I know from experience as a player and by what my players have said (and how they've shouted and cheered), that when the game is at the point that from the player's perspective it's all real and solid and durable and coming to life - even if you know its half seat of your pants - that at that time the GM is doing well.

Likewise, much of my experience with players playing entirely at a metagame level comes not from dealing with headache players as a GM, but being in the same group with headache players as a player and forced to sit through long, painful, and some times embarrassing arguments with the GM, or players that repeatedly steam roll GMs so that you wonder why the GM just doesn't pass the hat to the player and let him run the game. It's not fun for anyone, and certainly not fun compared to the joys you can have when everyone is actually playing together. I know that in part because sometimes it is the same player who is a problem in session after session, who is capable of the most sublime and enabling play in other sessions when they aren't busy browbeating the GM.

Hussar wants to make a contrast between speaking up and challenging the GM and passively consuming the GM's game. For me, the biggest tragedy of drawing that contrast isn't just that it's wrong and unnecessary, but that it's entirely got the problem reversed. Actually playing the game is the opposite of passive consumption of the game, but the most engaged you can possibly be in the game. Challenging the GM about whether manticores ought to appear in a forest is absolute and complete failure to be engaged in the game. You didn't just miss the bull's eye. You missed the whole barn.
 

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top