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Waibel's Rule of Interpretation (aka "How to Interpret the Rules")

The only CORRECT interpretation is the one I say! :eek::cool::p The sooner the rest of the world gets that, the sooner we can all sit down and have fun...and end all fantasy rpg forum arguments everywhere. :lol: heheheh. [Seliousry though, nice chart. :) ]

The only CORRECT interpretation is the one I say!
:eek::cool::p
The sooner the rest of the world gets that, the sooner we can all sit down and have fun...and end all fantasy rpg forum arguments everywhere.
:lol:
heheheh.

[Seliousry though, nice chart. :) ]
 

Celebrim

Legend
I'll post more later.

Cool. Anxious to hear from you. To save conversation, for me "agenda" is the end, and the means are the "techniques". You seem to be using the words slightly differently. Also, I feel you confuse the "joy" with the "technique" at times. If you can pay special attention to defining what they mean to you and separating them out, I think I'll understand you more fully. In particular, you make a statement like:

"Observing and using the subtle cues my players give me and exploiting my low prep in order to get to know my NPCs during play and then watch the world manifest and grow as we build it and add to it."

And I break that down as:

Agenda (ends): Exploration of setting; Exploration of character.
Technique(s) (means): Observing the players cues; Improvisation
Joy (experience): Being surprised by the things you discover in play, about the setting or the characters.

Putting that back together, I'd probably say my corresponding statement would be:

"Observing and using the subtle cues my players give me in order give the players opportunities to play, in order to get to know my PCs during play and then watch the story manifest and grow as we build it and add to it."

If I can tease out a possible difference in agenda, it's that you seem to have a more player perspective on enjoying exploring the NPCs and setting in play (which is what I enjoy as a player, so that's why I call it 'player perspective', this of course could be a bias), where as I tend to do my brainstorming on NPCs and setting out of session and so am not surprised by them in play (since I already 'know' them). My joy as a DM comes especially by exploring the character of the PCs and the surprising things that they do, and not the NPCs. The session is about lavishing my time and focus on the PCs (and through them on players), which is precisely why I spent the time between sessions lavishing detail on everything else so I'm not distracted from that mission. Between sessions I may be 'surprised' to learn of the existence of this or that NPC or location I never before imagined, based on my brainstorming about what 'should' exist (either to serve a narrative purpose or because the 'life' of the setting implies it). However, I would say that overall, this is a very small difference in agenda or joy compared to the large difference in technique.

Also, if you could address then why you enjoy being surprised about your NPCs or setting, I'd find that very interesting.
 

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pemerton

Legend
you are a strong and convincing advocate to "rulings not rules" !
I'm not 100% sure if you're being ironic, or if you're referring to my discussion of 4e's p 42/skill challenge stuff.

If the former, disregard what follows as it reflects a failure to follow your rhetoric!

If the latter, the following is an elaboration.

(If neither, just start again from scratch!)

I can think of three general variations on "rulings not rules".

The first two take as their pivot that action declarations are grounded in the fictional positioning of the PCs.

Variant (1): the poster children for this, in my mind, are Tomb of Horrors and White Plume Mountain. Action declaration is almost always expressed by relation to the GM's narrated fiction ("I poke my staff through the devil mouth"; "I take the doors of their hinges so we can surf them down the frictionless corridor").

The players describe their PCs' actions in purely, or almost purely, fictional terms, and the GM narrates what happens. In the Tweet/Edwards scheme of action resolution (fortune, karma, drama) this is resolution by means of drama (= talking). In the Baker/Crane scheme of techniques, it's a subtle and complex application of "say yes".

I almost never see this technique advocated for resolving combat, although in principle why "I stab him in the back when he's not looking" is just as amenable to this sort of resolution as "I hammer pitons into the wall and use them to climb up it." (Perhaps backed up by "Remember how I said I was sharpening my sword after the last fight? So it shouldn't have any trouble penetrating his leather armour.")

Indeed, in threads that debate how central combat is to D&D, those who (i) concede that D&D has a heavy dose of combat rues, but (ii) deny that combat is central to D&D, often argue that combat needs mechanics for its resolution (ie rules that go beyond narration procedures) in a way that is different from other sorts of action declaration.

Here is my tentative hypothesis about this: in D&D, the most important "stake" is character survival. And combat is, by default, to the death (0 hp). And it would be bad for the game for a GM to fiat a player into losing (by declaring his/her PC dead via drama resolution). Hence, when PC death is on the line, we pull out the dice as mediators. (Hence also why ToH, with so much die-without-a-save, is sometimes seen as unfair.)

This variant of rulings-not-rules doesn't appeal to me very much, for two reasons. First, it only works if all the table are in agreement on the fictional positioning. As I posted upthread, high fantasy (and gonzo genre more generally) can tend to put pressure on that agreement. Second, it treats PC death as the only crucial stake for the players. I don't really like this narrowness of scope, because if you are playing for story (as I prefer to) it is too narrow from the dramatic point of view.

Variant (2): For this I think of Dungeon World (much discussed above), Marvel Heroic, Burning Wheel, HeroWars/Quest, 4e's skill challenges/p 42, and no doubt many other games I don't know as well as I should.

Action resolution starts like variant (1), being expressed in terms of fictional positioning of the PCs, but it isn't resolved simply by drama/GM says yes-or-no. The rules of the game give relatively detailed advice and structured procedures for framing a needed dice roll, and give the player a relatively rich suite of resources to bring to bear to build up a dice pool or bundle of die roll modifiers or whatever, and resolution is then determined by roll, with the GM narrating the consequences in accordance with the game's guidelines.

I am a big fan of variant (2). Compared to variant (1) it somewhat de-centres the GM, or at least positions him/her slightly differently, because ultimately it is the dice which decide. And it also makes negotiations between players and GM over the framing easier, because this is all done as part of determining the die roll needed before consequences are narrated - whereas in variant (1) narration of framing and narration of consequences bleed into one another, with the result that player input into the framing too easily becomes player complaining about the outcome and/or pleading for takebacks/do-overs.

Another strength of variant (2) is that the players get to choose (through various devices, and with more or less freedom at various points in play, depending on game details) how to build up and deploy pools of resources, which means they get to choose when to go all-in (because the stakes are really high, for them) and when to let the odds run against them, thereby increasing the likelihood that the PC will fail and the GM will get his/her nefarious way. It's a nice dynamic for story-focused play, I think.

Now to variant (3) of rulings-not-rules. This is the variant that I think [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] has in mind when criticising aspects of 5e's approach. (If not, or if he doesn't like my approach to distinguishing variants, he can of course correct me!) Here the focus is not especially on fictional positioning. Rather, it is understood that resolution will be by way of die roll, but (i) the procedures for generating the target number are very fuzzy, (ii) the procedures for identifying a player's available resources to modify the die roll, and for governing their deployment, are very fuzzy, and (iii) the procedures for narrating consequences of a successful or failed die roll are very fuzzy.

A classic example of this would be ways of interpreting reaction or morale rolls that emerged in the early to mid 80s, post-Gygaxian D&D community: not as binding constraints on GM narration of monster behaviour (which rewards players who build PCs with high CHA, who systematically stage ambushes and take down leaders, etc) but as "guidelines" or "imagination prompts" for GM narration of monster behaviour.

Another example would be ad hoc "called shots": "I cut the guy's head off" - "OK, roll to hit with a -4 penalty". Outcomes become somewhat random relative to player choices about moves within the fiction (eg no longer is finding a vorpal sword necessary to cut someone's head off in combat other than by reducing them to 0 hp) and choices about resource deployment (the player didn't have to choose between, say, using a vorpal sword and using a +5 defender).

A contemporary example, in my view, is the 5e stealth rules, where the interaction between the resolution mechanics and player choices about resource deployment (PC build eg being a wood elf rather than a human; and during play, such as hiding behind a wall vs hiding in dim light etc) are very fuzzy.

I find that variant (3) tends in play towards variant (1), but with the huge detriment that on the way there it potentially burns players for their build choices or play choices, by appearing to give with one hand (mechanical choices, or in-play choices that are presented as having mechanical significance) while taking away with the other (because the rules for mediating those mechanical or mechanically significant choices into a resolution outcome are so fuzzy).

A borderline case, in my view, is the 5e surprise rule that requires the GM to determine what counts as a threat, and hence a potential source of surprise at the start of an encounter. This is close to variant (2) - because the framing is grounded in the fiction, and takes place prior to resolution - but peculiarities of 5e can push it towards a version of variant (1) - the GM narrating the players into a losing situation - which burns their resource choices on the way through. This is because 5e (like 3E and 4e before it) tends to emphasise PC build as the main place for resource choices. Compare this to a Burning Wheel Steel test, which likewise is triggered by GM determination that some sort of threat is present, but still leaves a player free to deploy various fate-point style resources, and other similar stuff, to try and respond to the thread, making it pretty clearly an instance of variant ([-]1[/-] 2).

Here are the two things I think that would put the 5e surprise rules in my variant (2) and hence would, in my view, make it a good application of rulings-not rules:

First, the GM sticks very rigidly to the rolled Stealth results for creatures (a bit like a Gygaxian GM sticking hard to rolled reaction and morale results).

Second, the GM allows the players to spend Inspiration to get advantage (+5) to their passive Perception so that being surprised isn't just a narrated consequence, but one that truly follows from player choices about stakes and resource deployment.

TL;DR: some thoughts about "rulings not rules".
 
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Jhaelen

First Post
I'm obviously late to the part but:
I dunno. Usually, if a rule doesn't seem to make sense it's my interpretation of it that is at fault, not the rule itself.
If I'm ever unsure about how to interpret a rule, I'm can usually figure it out by making a plausibility check:
E.g. if something from a player's point of view seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Also, to quote my sig: In a sense, the D&D game has no rules, only rule suggestions. - Tom Moldvay
 

Cyberen

First Post
[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] : wow, kudos, I feel you've taken the discussion onto something very interesting (at last !) [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] : I was not ironic in the least. I was thinking along the line of your point #2, as you are a strong proponent (and skilled user !) of p42 / open-ended skill challenges (I would also add ad-hoc disease tracks to the lot - maybe to track the dwarf condition when trying to handle the forging of Overwhelm). I really feel that 5e would also shine if used in this style (if only skill challenges were part of it !). Particularly, ad/disad is a wonderful tool for the DM, to express his own view on the situation without imposing it, and conveying it to the players (reducing the risk of miscommunication). Inspiration is also a good currency for the players to show their effort. The math of bounded accuracy looks sound (it might need some polishing - as p42 did - to get the DCs right).
Some rules ARE fuzzy. Rather than sticking to them, I truly believe they should be replaced/tweaked till they make sense (to whom :p). For instance, this is the 3rd edition in a row with Stealth & Perception scores. The rules from 3.5 or 4e can be copied and pasted to replace those fuzzy 5e rules without damaging the game.
The surprise rules suck badly, and need to be replaced ASAP, but it's not a big deal.
 

pemerton

Legend
The surprise rules suck badly, and need to be replaced ASAP, but it's not a big deal.
Am I right in thinking that your objection is that they are too swingy relative to the overall dynamics of combat (because of the signficance of a free round in a system built on two-to-three round combats)?
 

Alright. Going to try to post this as clearly as possible. Here goes:

Agenda - Your agenda makes up the things you aim to do at all times while GMing. It is your macro approach to play as a whole and concerns broad consideration for aesthetic and functional priorities, which then trickle down to Principles and Techniques.

4 examples (not exhaustive):

1) Play to find out what happens.

2) Tell the players a good story.

3) Focus on your players, provoke them, and push play toward adventure/conflict.

4) Give them a fantasy sandbox (world which has its own will and machinery, untethered to the PCs' fate) to play in.




Principles - One of these tenets will serve to bind and inform the GM each time he/she invokes/deploys (or forbids) a specific play procedure (Technique). Their aggregate effect is to push play toward one agenda or away from another.

4 examples (not exhaustive):

1) Pay close attention to what your players give you during play and use it.

2) Think off-screen but invoke it sparingly and, when doing so, telegraph it deftly (or even overtly). Never use it as a stick to bludgeon the PCs with or a box to hem them in.

3) The metagame and the off-screen are GM tools which should be used to show your players "a living/breathing world in motion", to protect class niche/player spotlight, and possibly to deal with character abilities or players' plans which circumvent the drama or story you have planned for them.

4) Where they are at tension, internal consistency should always trump dramatic need.




Techniques - These are the actual specific procedures of play (typically concerning resolution mechanics, authority, player stance(s), genre expectations, and dramatic pacing) which are centered around the introduction of elements into the shared imaginary space for current or future use.

4 examples (not exhaustive):

1) "Say yes or roll the dice"

2) "Fail Forward"

3) Unified NPC and PC build rules

4) Fudging dice rolls or post-hoc manipulation of DCs
 


Now to variant (3) of rulings-not-rules. This is the variant that I think [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] has in mind when criticising aspects of 5e's approach. (If not, or if he doesn't like my approach to distinguishing variants, he can of course correct me!) Here the focus is not especially on fictional positioning. Rather, it is understood that resolution will be by way of die roll, but (i) the procedures for generating the target number are very fuzzy, (ii) the procedures for identifying a player's available resources to modify the die roll, and for governing their deployment, are very fuzzy, and (iii) the procedures for narrating consequences of a successful or failed die roll are very fuzzy.

TL;DR: some thoughts about "rulings not rules".

Some very good thoughts on "rulings not rules" I'll add. Hopefully the above post is clearer than my initial iteration and the trickle down/association that I tried to communicate between the three elements are at least moderately intuitive. Thanks again for your critique/assist.

If not, you and [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] , and hopefully others, will let me know and we can conceive something that we collectively grok!

I agree with all that you've written in the post above. I'll also add a 4th to your list above (that I invoked before). There is also spatial and temporal information missing in some of the resolution mechanics. In a game like 5e D&D with varying resource scheduling based on class and rest mechanics, and all kinds of bits and bobs measured in precise spatial units, that can be very problematic. Specifically when you consider many of these things (how far, how long, where to) are all off-screen and established in the shared imaginary space only after the player declares the action and the mechanics resolve it. Principles and techniques will inform the establishment of those things. If the GM couldn't possibly have prepped for that action declaration, and the "how far", "how long", "where to" becomes particularly punitive to the player who declared the action (or team PC in general), then you may have some players that feel the GM is unethically advantaging their unique access to "the offscreen" (fictional elements not established in the imaginary space as of yet) to block or unnecessarily punish their move. Your situation with the kobold and your old GM was a version of this.

[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] : wow, kudos, I feel you've taken the discussion onto something very interesting (at last !)

Fingers crossed!

[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] , apologies. Its late. Pretty tired. Long/big day tomorrow. I only got one of the parts of your request done but I'll try to address the specific requests/points of your prior 2 posts tomorrow evening (hopefully!). Also, I'm going to try to find some time (hopefully before your next session...) to post some follow-up thoughts (how to thematically challenge the specific PC resources you were talking about) in your thread on your upcoming nautical conflict in your game.
 


Hussar

Legend
Awww. Ya tease! :p

Naw, the thread has finally gotten some legs in an interesting direction. I think it's probably more helpful if I stay out of things because it will simply wind up more of directing arguments at the poster and not the post. Funny thing is, SD, if you note when the whole "Hussar hates DM's" thing comes up, it is almost always the same two or three posters making the claim based on posts they've "seen" in the past. Given the reactions to some fairly innocuous questions here (like my first one, "Makes sense to who"), I'd say that there's a lot more issues going on than simply discussing what's at hand.

I've apparently been hung with this reputation because I don't necessarily automatically default to the DM's calls being right every single time. It's rather unfortunate actually because it makes discussion so difficult when people refuse to address points but instead simply want to rack up an argument score against a straw man that doesn't exist.
 

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