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Waibel's Rule of Interpretation (aka "How to Interpret the Rules")

The only CORRECT interpretation is the one I say! :eek::cool::p The sooner the rest of the world gets that, the sooner we can all sit down and have fun...and end all fantasy rpg forum arguments everywhere. :lol: heheheh. [Seliousry though, nice chart. :) ]

The only CORRECT interpretation is the one I say!
:eek::cool::p
The sooner the rest of the world gets that, the sooner we can all sit down and have fun...and end all fantasy rpg forum arguments everywhere.
:lol:
heheheh.

[Seliousry though, nice chart. :) ]
 


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pemerton

Legend
Encounter design and scenario design are ingredients or individual dishes. The campaign is the banquet.

<snip>

Apples and oranges. The player pointed out an in-game even that you had forgotten, and which had a direct impact on the scenario. That's the sort of thing a DM should absolutely pay attention to.

"Where manticores live," especially in a world where that hasn't previously and formally been established, isn't remotely the same thing.
I tend to see the campaign as a gestalt constituted by the encounters/scenarios. For me, making the campaign suit the players is achieved by focusing on encounter and scenario design.

In terms of your analogy, a banquet is pre-planned. For me, a campaign isn't.

The contrast between creature placement and maintaining previously-established facts about NPCs also seems to me not universalisable. For me, pre-packaged backstory and canon aren't as important to play as events established in play. But I'm sure there are other players out there who care more about canon than they do about the outcomes of action resolution, especially social action resolution.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
Pemerton said:
That's an out-of-character, real-world reaction. It seems to me that the GM can't deal with it (or, at least, can't deal with it successfully) just by reiterating imaginary facts about the imagined gameworld.

I have to disagree, because (1) it acknowledges you aren't making the choice haphazardly, (2) it does put the focus back on the game, and (3) as I said, it's not unheard of in real life to have animals or people displaced from normal habitats, and the onus needs to be put on the player to realize it.

If a player still balks, then a single sentence asking to reserve their concerns for after the session should be sufficient, and bring it up for discussion then. But i'm not about to waste session time on a game argument. I get an average of two hours a week to game, and I'm not about to let a fellow player monopolize that when we have all week to debate it by email or after game.
 

One of the primary responsibilities, and primary joys, of DMing is world-building and setting design.

For you, perhaps. For me these are secondary - for me the primary joy is in adventure/scenario design, and adjudicating the game in play. (This hasn't always been true. Like many people, my tastes have changd over the years. I can't predict how they might change further into the future.) I think [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] has said in the past that he has very little interest in world-building as a GM activity.

This variance is GMing agenda, principles and joys is no small thing. It wouldn't make me unhappy in the least to see the conversation dovetail into a conversation about the divergence on this very issue from one GM to a next and its attendant effect on play.

As people who read my posts are probably well aware, I come down squarely on the [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] side of the issue. I've never enjoyed pre-game world-building or the intricacies and nuance of setting development. To be honest, its probably fair to say that I rather loathe it.

Alternatively, I've steeped myself in the lore of FR and Planescape because perhaps 20 - 30 players that I GMed for in 2e and 3e wanted me to run games in those settings. But I hated it. Every minute of it, from the learning of it to the binding application of it in play, and how it seemed to create within those players (who wanted it) a sense that they just wanted to be passive surveyors of their beloved setting...entertained by my bringing to life the goings-ons and whirly-gigs within my personal iteration of their favorite canon.

Over the course of these 30 years of GMing, I've found that I like very specific things about GMing:

1 - Ruminating upon and then devising the most interesting and open-ended ways to hook into the dramatic premises that emerge (either at the PC build stage or in the early stages of play) in each player's character.

2 - Executing consistently on driving play toward the conflicts that the players are interested in and letting their actions and the resolution mechanics dictate where things go.

3 - Prepping extremely low (but that prep having lots of thematic potency and utility), improvising hard, and being proud of and surprised by the results of play.

4 - Observing and using the subtle cues my players give me and exploiting my low prep in order to get to know my NPCs during play and then watch the world manifest and grow as we build it and add to it.

5 - Knowing precisely how, when, and when not to use the almighty GM advantages, "the offscreen" and "the metagame."

6 - Understanding dramatic momentum, how to build it, how to let the conflict snowball, and then let it climax.

7 - Challenging my players themselves, challenging myself in the process, and never subordinating their protagonism or player agency by suspending or overturning the outcomes of their action declarations + the resolution mechanics.


I guess those are the top 7. Writing an extensive meta-plot/adventure, world-building and setting design aren't even on the list. Personally, when I consider the meta-plots/adventures I've run and the "steeped in canon" worlds/settings that I've run, I find it liberating for myself personally (from a mental overhead standpoint) and liberating from a play perspective to be rid of them both. This is because there is no need for any heavy-handed GMing or GM force (no over-leveraging of the off-screen, no fudging, no sneaky suspension/abridgement of the action resolution mechanics) and I can just abide by some simple principles, a clear agenda, observe the rules and I can then play to find out what happens just like the players.

Interestingly enough, I also dislike being involved too heavily in the translation and adjudication of vague or over-complex resolution mechanics! My guess is that certain folks reading this post are likely thinking "...dude....you hate GMing!"
 

Okay, but even those of you who don't like world-building are still in the position of making decisions about your setting. If your entire point is to not have canon/setting elements established in advance, then why would you be okay with a player trying to force you to cleave to them? (I.e. the manticore terrain question.) Seems to me like that's pushing more in the direction you're trying to avoid, not less.

It also--again, regardless of whether you're setting-focused, campaign-focused, encounter-focused, whatever--betrays a lack of trust in the DM to argue such a petty issue during game time; and also a lack of consideration for everyone else at the table.
 

Okay, but even those of you who don't like world-building are still in the position of making decisions about your setting. If your entire point is to not have canon/setting elements established in advance, then why would you be okay with a player trying to force you to cleave to them? (I.e. the manticore terrain question.) Seems to me like that's pushing more in the direction you're trying to avoid, not less.

It also--again, regardless of whether you're setting-focused, campaign-focused, encounter-focused, whatever--betrays a lack of trust in the DM to argue such a petty issue during game time; and also a lack of consideration for everyone else at the table.

Above where I noted that I come down squarely in the "Hussar Camp", I was referring to disinterest or active disdain of world-building. If I had to come up with an opinion on the "Manticore Affair", I would say that it definitely depends on play agenda and the system.

If I'm running a pawn stance, Gygaxian dungeon-crawl/wilderness exploration game, then knowledge earned from prior experience is all a part of the "skilled play" format. I do my best to not upend that metagame knowledge so the players can appropriately prepare for, strategize around, and execute their honed SOPs for dealing with "problem n".

If I'm running a hex-crawl or a sandbox game and the default canon knowledge is relevant to PC build (of which has been bought and paid for by the player), then I'm going to do my best to adhere to it. If I make a mistake and that mistake negatively impacts a PC's shtick (thematic and mechanical), then I want to know about it and I want to rectify the situation.

If none of the above apply, then who really cares? If the player is just being a canon-snob for the sake of being a neener neener canon-snob, then I'd just tell them to tackle the problem and move on. Although I've met a few neener neener canon-snobs, my guess is that the two cases above likely make up a fair chunk of the issues that Hussar is describing.

Personally, again, just like I prefer low resolution setting/canon, I prefer a "less is more" approach with monsters. Endless ecologies and all the rest leave me cold. I'll take a tight, focused, brief description/story for the NPC/monster, replete with keywords such that I can use them as interesting, proper-themed antagonism and I'm good to go. The 4e and Dungeon World approach are exactly what I want. For example, this is pithy, malleable, and just full of awesome.
 

Cyberen

First Post
Still losing SAN... [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] : thank you for the long example, but I've found your pointer to DW Manticore even more convincing ! I share most of your DMing agenda, except for your point 7.
I take some pleasure in having rules whith enough of a simulationist streak that a world following these rules wouldn't fall apart too quickly. That must be the reason I feel more comfortable with 5e than 4e (too gonzo for my taste) or DW (100 % protagonism is a neat game, but is frustrating for the DM in me). [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] : I was challenging you rhetorically. I believe you when you say the DM was a railroading tyrant. I just wanted to make clear it didn't follow from your in game story (as in-game events can't tell anything about out-of-game events). By the way, you are a strong and convincing advocate to "rulings not rules" ! Also, your kobold kidnapping story would make a nice Fiasco setup :)
Re Manticore in forests : assuming it was not a heads up game, DM and player alike deserve tar and feather, and should apologize to the other players. Saying yes is an improv rule, and going against is a foul. This behaviour is against any gamebook and table rules I would care to participate in, and the DM is first among equals to make sure this etiquette is enforced (note that I have been there as a DM and as a player, and I deserve my share of tar). A DM who would not end quickly this argument, or who would yield to this demand would lose me as a player at the end of the session.
Re : DM as master of rules, my own personal preference is close to those expresses by Mouseferatu, Sacrosanct and Celebrim. Rules ARE clunky, and if the clunk is too loud, it should be adressed, and I endorse the operating scheme proposed by Mouseferatu.
 


Celebrim

Legend
This variance is GMing agenda, principles and joys is no small thing. It wouldn't make me unhappy in the least to see the conversation dovetail into a conversation about the divergence on this very issue from one GM to a next and its attendant effect on play.

First we have to establish that there is a huge variance in GMing agenda. I can see that there are conceivable variations, but at least among the group present here, I don't see as much actual variation in agenda as in differences in the tools and talents applied to obtaining that agenda.

You suggest that you have a low enjoyment of world simulation, and that you have no favored setting you are carefully constructing as a toy in your mind. And that's probably some variation from me as a GM, because I do have such a 'setting as mental toy', but if in fact 'setting as mental toy' was my agenda, I wouldn't bother to nor need to GM, because setting as my own mental toy to develop is just as enjoyable and if not more enjoyable by world building for its own sake. If I really had this as my agenda, I would build the world but not waste time running the game. Instead, I find that I do very little world building except where I think it intersects my game needs. For example, despite the fact that this setting is now 30 years old, I'd never in that time even given much thought to a sun deity until I had a player say, "I want to worship the sun deity." Only after I had an in game reason for a sun deity, did I begin fleshing out what that sun deity was like.

This suggests to me that are real agendas aren't as dissimilar as you might think. I think it is fair to say that once I find an in game need for setting information, I'll pour myself into imagining that setting information and that I prefer to spend a lot of time brainstorming for ideas I think I'll need prior to play rather than hoping my first instincts during a game are the best. From what you've said, I'd guess you prefer to improvise on the fly in response to needs as they come up. But neither of these things is actually an agenda of play, but rather a GMing technique for bringing about the desired play. It isn't clear to me that the sort of play we both desire has divergent features, or that the experience of being a GM in play we both desire is all that divergent. All I hear is you hate to prep and don't think you need it to obtain the desired play experience where as I feel I need to prep in order to obtain the desired play experience because I don't trust improvisation.

Over the course of these 30 years of GMing, I've found that I like very specific things about GMing:

Yes, but the things you list aren't agendas. When you say you enjoy: "Ruminating upon and then devising the most interesting and open-ended ways to hook into the dramatic premises that emerge (either at the PC build stage or in the early stages of play) in each player's character.", I can fully agree with that, but first its not at all clear we are using divergent techniques ("Ruminating...and then devising...hooks into the dramatic premises...in each player's character."). Secondly, the agenda of play here is implied, rather than explicitly stated.

If I may suggest, the actual agenda of play here is nothing less than, "Watching a player play his character in dramatic situations.", and everything else you talk about is a tool or technique toward achieving that end goal. Tools and techniques however are not agendas of play.

The only other agendas of play I see you mention in your seven techniques is: "Challenging my players themselves" and "challenging myself in the process"

Again, if your actual GMing agendas are:
1) Watching my players play in dramatic situations.
2) Challenging my players (to play skillfully, whatever that means)
3) And, challenging myself (to play skillfully, whatever that means)

Then its highly unlikely that your agenda differs all that much from mine. Instead, you've basically described only one difference in technique between myself and you - relatively high prep versus relatively low prep. But both of us are engaged in those techniques I would argue to achieve the same basic ends, and as such I would argue that a lot of the material that I create prior to play is the very sort of material you find yourself improvising in play. For whatever reason, I find I need or prefer to review and refine those ideas between sessions based on 'what was learned' from the prior session. For example, I may find that I need a new event or location that I didn't anticipate. I may need to improvise this event or location in play off the cuff, but if I can foresee it from further off, I prefer to prep that element before hand (even if it turns out half the time I find I don't need it, or that it doesn't happen like I expected, but becomes something I can pivot to many sessions after I first created it).

Writing an extensive meta-plot/adventure, world-building and setting design aren't even on the list.

All of those things have a certain charm for me in and of themselves, but they really aren't part of play and can be entirely divorced from the task of being a GM. In fact, many good GMs are poor world builders either by inclination or talent and so 'out source' world building entirely to some professional or content provider.

This is because there is no need for any heavy-handed GMing or GM force (no over-leveraging of the off-screen, no fudging, no sneaky suspension/abridgement of the action resolution mechanics) and I can just abide by some simple principles, a clear agenda, observe the rules and I can then play to find out what happens just like the players.

This sort of statement strikes me as a misunderstanding, as neither high meta-plot nor high preparation actually requires any of the things you abhor. When you state this as a reason for avoiding the technique, it just suggests to me that part of your problem is that you understand a lot better how to improvise effectively than you understand how to prepare effectively. One reason I say that is I engage in high prep precisely to avoid high reliance on fudging, abridgement of the action/resolution mechanics, and reliance on metagaming that I find is the inevitable result (consciously or unconsciously) of high reliance on improvisation. (See for example my essay on how to railroad, where I assert that all low prep games are unavoidably railroads.)

My guess is that certain folks reading this post are likely thinking "...dude....you hate GMing!"

Not really. I suspect that you take great joy in watching players engage dramatic situations in clever ways, and you take more joy in watching someone else come up with a cool idea than you do yourself. If you don't, you probably shouldn't be a GM. For example, many stereotypical bad GMs are actually just frustrated players (or novelists), who wish to play out characters engaged in dramatic play but were frustrated at that as players and are so trying to achieve that agenda of play from the wrong side of the screen. One big flashing warning sign that you are GMing wrong is you spend a lot of time imagining in great detail the one way players are going to respond to a scene instead of prepping for the 20 different ways they might respond and being happy with all of them.
 
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@Celebrim , very good, clear post and on an extremely quick read-through, I'm not sure that I disagree with much of what you say.

However, I may have not written clearly what those 7 bits above were. They weren't meant to be an agenda. They were meant to be the things I enjoy about GMing. So, the ends whereby the agenda would be a part of the means (the other being principles and techniques) to get there (but would also include the means to satisfy my players...which should marry to what my joys are our we have a problem at the table).

Don't have the time at this exact moment, but I'll try to respond properly to your post this evening or tomorrow and perhaps layout my general GMing agenda as succinctly as possible (which, again, should look like the means to get to the ends - those 7 scribed joys of GMing).

What might be helpful in evaluating play divergence, is if the GMs in this thread posted their joys (the ends) and the means to get there (agenda, principles, techniques). For instance, the agenda of "play to find out what happens" is at one end of the spectrum while "tell my players a good story" probably sits at the other end of the agenda spectrum. The principle of "draw maps but leave blanks" would lie on one end of the princples spectrum while "before play, flesh out or use an extremely detailed setting/world" would fall on the other end. And on techniques, something like "fail forward" would be on one end of the spectrum while "task resolution tightly mapped to process simulation/causal logic" would fall on the other.

I'll post more later.
 

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