• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Waibel's Rule of Interpretation (aka "How to Interpret the Rules")

The only CORRECT interpretation is the one I say! :eek::cool::p The sooner the rest of the world gets that, the sooner we can all sit down and have fun...and end all fantasy rpg forum arguments everywhere. :lol: heheheh. [Seliousry though, nice chart. :) ]

The only CORRECT interpretation is the one I say!
:eek::cool::p
The sooner the rest of the world gets that, the sooner we can all sit down and have fun...and end all fantasy rpg forum arguments everywhere.
:lol:
heheheh.

[Seliousry though, nice chart. :) ]
 

Pondering this further, I think the above is why I--and, if I may dare presume to speak for them, people like Celebrim and Sacrosanct--are so bothered by the notion that Hussar would even consider changing an encounter for such a trivial (and not even canonical) complaint.

It's not because we're tyrant DMs. It's not because, as some have suggested, we're upset that a player dared to challenge the All-Mighty OzDM.

It's because challenging/objecting to something that minor is a violation of the implicit social contract that is all but required to make D&D work. It's a violation of the minimum trust/authority that a DM needs in order to even begin to run an effective game. And it is, by definition, personal. Saying, "Hey, shouldn't manticores only be in the desert?" is fine, a legit question if that's where it ends. But as soon as someone begins arguing it, it ceases to be a question and becomes, whether intentionally or not, a statement of "I don't trust you, as DM, to make rational decisions or to know what you're doing."

I think the reason I am saying it isn't a problem, is because we are viewing the same thing differently... you keep seeing the PC starting the argument, and not just saying "Hey that shouldn't be here"

all I go by is Hussar said he wished he had handled it differently... I thought he started the argument and was dismissive, maybe even rude... as such he wished he handled it differently...

I agree the PC should not have started a fight, but all the post said was PC said X and fight started, but not what DM said, then it went on to say DM was in the wrong (in fact that was the whole point of the post) so if I know DM was in the wrong, and not who started or escalated, I assumed it was the DM


I suspect there is far less difference between how play actually proceeds at the table, than there is between how people conceptualize their play at the table.
I imagine so too, but somehow I still get told I am doing things wrong, and that my antodotes are less important then other poples, and that I am like a 9 year old...
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Check out page 243 of the DMG for encounter distance (visibility outdoors ranges from 2 miles down to as little as 100-300 feet in foggy conditions), or page 117 for underwater encounter distance.

Appreciate it. I was just looking at the Basic PDFs. Couple questions if you don't mind:

Any mention in the DMG's encounter distance guidelines of sound's effect on encounter distance (eg the thundering impact of a herd in stampede).

Also, any mention about the action resolution/play procedure questions (specifically the lack of clarity on task resolution versus conflict resolution and win/loss conditions) that I posed in that post. Or Specific GM Agenda, Principles, Techniques/Moves and how these couple with the play procedures/resolution mechanics to create a specific play experience?
 


DaveDash

Explorer
Yeah, it really is "anything goes."

Sure, different people have different lines. But that doesn't change any of what I'm saying.

Players W, X, Y, and Z are playing in a game run by Player A. Player A says "This is based on the DCU, but with major changes." All the other players agree.

Seven games in, we discover there's no Green Lantern Corps in this game. And we discover that that's a major problem for X, because he's always considered that a central point of the DCU.

X has two options. He can grit his teeth and go with it, because he trusts A to deliver a good campaign. Or he can politely bow out of the campaign.

What he does not have the right to do, assuming he's a halfway mature adult, is demand A change the setting, or to sulk about it.

Sure, the DM has to know his players, and the players have to know the DM. But that goes back to what I said about "minimum trust." Unless it's a brand new group that I'm just starting to get to know, I always take into account what I believe my players will enjoy when designing a new campaign. AFAIAC, that's such a basic part of the process that it doesn't even warrant being called out. It kinda goes without saying, I think, that a DM who doesn't consider his friends' preferences when designing a campaign isn't going to have players very long.

I don't pretend to be perfect. I can screw up a mechanic or a plot point or a setting detail, and if I do, I have no problem with my players pointing it out. But once they've done so, and I've made the call--one way or the other--I expect them to go along with it. Because that's the implicit promise they made me when they agreed to be in a game I was running, just as "I will do my best to make this an overall enjoyable experience" was an implicit promise I made when I agreed to run.

Here's the thing, plain and simple.

Anything story based who really cares? The DM can put a Dragon in a toilet for all I care. It might strain my suspension of disbelief but I'll get over it. As long as I'm not a passenger in the DM's story it doesn't bother me.

But when it comes to interpreting the rules, the DM better damn well take into considering my input, and the others players input, if it effects us. If I am playing a rogue character and he suddenly decides after a few sessions that he doesn't like the hiding/stealth rules, he better damn well consult me about it or I will be challenging him at the table and away from the table for sure.

It's my character, not his, and I am the one putting the time and effort into that character. Rule interpretations generally don't have much of an impact on his story, so they're not HIS alone to decide upon. Of course the exception to this would be anything that breaks the game.

The rule book is there for a reason, otherwise we all might as well just sit around and play cops and robbers "I shot you, nah nah, I shot you first!".
 

Appreciate it. I was just looking at the Basic PDFs. Couple questions if you don't mind:

Any mention in the DMG's encounter distance guidelines of sound's effect on encounter distance (eg the thundering impact of a herd in stampede).

Also, any mention about the action resolution/play procedure questions (specifically the lack of clarity on task resolution versus conflict resolution and win/loss conditions) that I posed in that post. Or Specific GM Agenda, Principles, Techniques/Moves and how these couple with the play procedures/resolution mechanics to create a specific play experience?

No problem. Page 243 addresses visibility but not sound, so when hearing the reindeer in foggy conditions you're probably going to have to default back to Wikipedia and the principles of physics, or just guesstimation.

Page 243 does have specific DCs for tracking--"light snow" is DC 10--which would help narrow down the range of uncertainty in your example. But no guidance there for what "failure" to befriend the dog represents. I personally would object to the Schrodinger's aspect of making failure cause reindeer to appear, although I understand why you'd run your game that way. (I wouldn't object to your making the reindeer appear for your own reasons, only to the idea of me having spontaneously summoned them by my giving the dog food. In a narrativist system like DW this wouldn't be a problem, but in D&D disassociated mechanics bug me.)
 

Eric V

Hero
QFT...and because apparently it bares repeating for the loads of folks out there that do not comprehend playing this way.

Maybe it does bear repeating, but I think more than a few people have said something along the lines of what Mouse has said; Hussar (the guy who gets accused of believing the DM is always wrong) seems to have dealt with it in this fashion for example.
 

do you think that someone that knows you well (a friend) might not notice you doing so? how about if you did it for 2 or 3 things? what if you noticed two of your friends doing it? how long before someone says something?

There are degrees of "teeth-gritting." If it's a big enough deal that it's literally ruining the game for him, the player should politely bring it up--between sessions, not during--and be willing to leave the game if the discussion doesn't go his way.

But honestly, if it's a DM I truly like/trust, I have a hard time thinking of anything of this nature that would bother me so much I wouldn't be willing to give it a try and see where he was going.

and the difference between sulking and gritting your teeth is? and again we go to extremes, where I agree he can't "Demand" can he ask?

Politely ask? Yes. Between games. One time. And he needs to be prepared to live with the answer, one way or the other.

do you think any of the following is acceptable (assume they are friend and both being polite):

1) Player: "Why not?"

2) Player: "Um, since when?"

3) Player: "I really love GL and have been trying to get a way to contact them... would it hurt to change it?"

Done politely? All are acceptable, if the player doesn't keep arguing once the question is answered. But in Hussar's example (for instance), it became a long, ongoing, game-interrupting discussion/argument. That is not acceptable.

except on this board in the last 2 months I have been told "I will not let a player ever play a dragonborn." and when I ask exactly that... if you knew a player wanted to could you make a world where it is exceptable... I was again told "No why would I "
I have also been told the same about multi classing, and many other things...

"Taking into account" doesn't mean "I will allow/agree with every specific detail." It means, "Do I think the players will, overall, enjoy this particular campaign concept I have in mind?"

Specific issues, like whether the world has dragonborn or multiclassing? Irrelevant if the overall campaign is one that works for the group. I may be a tad disappointed if I have an idea for a character and then discover I can't use it in this campaign, but it's not going to turn me off of a campaign that otherwise sounds fun.

Also, let's consider that the DM has to enjoy the game, too. If the inclusion of dragonborn is going to disrupt the feel/mood/theme of a setting--say, for instance, the DM was going for a very human-centric Lankhmar-style campaign--then no, the fact that a specific player really likes dragonborn isn't a good enough reason to allow them in this particular campaign.

And again, if the DM knows the group well enough to know they'll likely enjoy the campaign overall, that shouldn't matter.

The campaign I'm running right now? For various reasons, I limited the racial options. I wanted most of teh group to be human, and even the rare nonhumans couldn't be tieflings or dragonborn. That's not a constant rule with me as DM; I like tieflings and dragonborn, in their place. It just didn't fit this particular campaign. And my group was fine with that, because they understood it was a decision was making for the campaign. My next campaign will likely be quite different, and if anyone wants to play a dragonborn or tiefling, they'll probably have the chance then.

Now, if the DM is just excluding them because "I don't like 'em, and I want my D&D as it was twenty years ago," well... That's not as solid a reason, and can probably bear a longer discussion than it otherwise would. But at the end of the day, it's the DM who has to "run" the entire setting. And thus, we're back to the basic equation for the player: Once we've had our polite discussion and he hasn't changed his mind, I have to decide, can I live with this and still enjoy the campaign, or should I go?

It really does almost always boil down to being that simple.
 

But when it comes to interpreting the rules, the DM better damn well take into considering my input, and the others players input, if it effects us. If I am playing a rogue character and he suddenly decides after a few sessions that he doesn't like the hiding/stealth rules, he better damn well consult me about it or I will be challenging him at the table and away from the table for sure.

Any good DM will make such major mechanical decisions outside the game--before or after a session, for instance. At which point, a prolonged discussion is absolutely acceptable.

At no point have I suggested that PCs shouldn't have any input into rules changes. (My own technique is usually to say to the group, "I'm considering Changes X and Y. Do you guys see any problem with this?")

But...

It still, ultimately, comes down to the two-step process I've been describing.

1) Discuss it (politely, out of game) with the DM.

2) If the DM still rules in a way you don't like, decide if you can live with it or if you'd rather leave the game.

Any DM who's consistently unreasonable will eventually find himself with no group.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Hussar (the guy who gets accused of believing the DM is always wrong)

Good catch on the homonym.

As for this quoted bit, there's several years of other comments in other threads on all sorts of topics to support that view. Whoever it was who brought it up here (I've lost track in all of this muck and mire) is not the only person who has noted that trend. I take it as a statement on a pattern of observed behavior, not a personal attack.
 

It still, ultimately, comes down to the two-step process I've been describing.

1) Discuss it (politely, out of game) with the DM.

2) If the DM still rules in a way you don't like, decide if you can live with it or if you'd rather leave the game.

Any DM who's consistently unreasonable will eventually find himself with no group.

that is my way of handling it.. both as a PC and DM, but people keep telling me that leads to white bread weak games...
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top