D&D 2E Wait, what? (Spell memorization in 2nd ed AD&D)

[Lanefan]

Honestly though I think the chance of spell failure is covered by saving throws, though in something of a reverse fashion. That is, instead of the caster failing, the target gets lucky.

Only for those spells that have saves. Not all do, particularly those beneficial to the recipient, and for these some other mechanic might be useful.

 

[cbwjm]

I actually think a mechanic is needed to make spells harder to resist. In those earlier editions, unless you're going up against something far below your level, your enemies are improving their saves at a steady rate so that your spells (particularly the various save or suck spells) are often next to useless.

 

[jasper]

Yea Spell Memory cr... Stuff sucked back in 1E and 2E. After finding it did not work for a dungeon crawl, or high combat game; I switched. I THINK it was 15 minutes per spell regardless of level.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I consider this a feature. High level casters are not supposed to unload all their spells each day. If they need to, then they need time to recuperate.

It was definitely a feature.

However, certainly by mid-late 2E, spell memorization times, especially as they were annoying to calculate by the 2E method, was one of those rules that had sort of fallen by the wayside for a lot of groups. I remember in very late 2E, seeing it, whilst checking for some other rule, and going "My god, I haven't enforced that for years! Oh well!", and it wasn't just me - I'd played in other groups and no-one had said "Okay let's calculate how long it takes the Wizard to memorize his spells!".

But like a lot of these gradually-forgotten rules, its loss, largely inconsequential in most 2E scenarios, was part of the caster power creep that created the 3E/PF LFQW situation.

I'm planning to put some of the old restrictions back in place in 3e to rein in caster power a bit.

Spell preparation times will be the first. I'll do 2e's 10 minutes/level times rather than 1e's 15 minutes because the math works better with cantrips which would be cosidered 1/2 levels. It's just more convenient to do them at 5 minutes than 7.5 minutes which would either be rounded down to 7 minutes per 3e's rounding standards or 75 rounds which just adds more complications to the math. I'm hoping that will strike a blow against the hated 15 minute workday.

I think you may accidentally encourage the 15 minute workday even more that way, if the mindset is already there, because casters are basically going to want to rest as soon as they use any spells at all, because it's the only way to have a "full quiver" for when the big fight comes.

I think you'd definitely need to make it part of a package, and actively encourage people to engage with avoiding the 15 minute workday in their play, in a stated way, because I don't think rules changes alone will be enough.

 

[Alzrius]

I'm planning to put some of the old restrictions back in place in 3e to rein in caster power a bit.

Spell preparation times will be the first. I'll do 2e's 10 minutes/level times rather than 1e's 15 minutes because the math works better with cantrips which would be cosidered 1/2 levels. It's just more convenient to do them at 5 minutes than 7.5 minutes which would either be rounded down to 7 minutes per 3e's rounding standards or 75 rounds which just adds more complications to the math. I'm hoping that will strike a blow against the hated 15 minute workday.

I think you may accidentally encourage the 15 minute workday even more that way, if the mindset is already there, because casters are basically going to want to rest as soon as they use any spells at all, because it's the only way to have a "full quiver" for when the big fight comes.

I think you'd definitely need to make it part of a package, and actively encourage people to engage with avoiding the 15 minute workday in their play, in a stated way, because I don't think rules changes alone will be enough.

In that regard, I'd recommend going with another bit of advice from the 1E DMG and making sure that 3E casters have access to wands and staves which they can use as their primary methods of attacking (e.g. a wand of fireballs or a staff of frost, etc.). Staves (the 3.X versions, not the Pathfinder 1E ones) will be preferable, since they have a slightly wider array of spells and allow the caster to use their caster level and their ability scores (and relevant feats) to boost the save DCs. You might want to allow recharging, so that they won't be too concerned about conserving charges.

The overall idea is that their spells will become a resource that they'll only use when they can't just whip out their usual wand or staff of choice and blast something, making it so that they'll dip into those less frequently to begin with, and so won't feel the need to stop and fill them up when they're at less than (say) 80% capacity.

 

[thomkt]

The overall idea is that their spells will become a resource that they'll only use when they can't just whip out their usual wand or staff of choice and blast something

Letting the have access to 5E style cantrips helps out here as well.

 

[Ace]

I'm planning to put some of the old restrictions back in place in 3e to rein in caster power a bit.

Spell preparation times will be the first. I'll do 2e's 10 minutes/level times rather than 1e's 15 minutes because the math works better with cantrips which would be cosidered 1/2 levels. It's just more convenient to do them at 5 minutes than 7.5 minutes which would either be rounded down to 7 minutes per 3e's rounding standards or 75 rounds which just adds more complications to the math. I'm hoping that will strike a blow against the hated 15 minute workday.

I would not do that myself. IME the usual result of lowering caster power without making it overall a much lower magic world is players call it quits even faster.

And note this is sound behavior. If you are say a soldier with a rifle and only one magazine of ammo , as soon as you are out of ammo you ca carry you'll head back to base for more since you are no longer useful to your fellow troopies.

For example, a 6th level 3e mage with say a 14 Con, 12 Dex and Greyhawk Average HP (i.e Adventurers League ready) without spells has an AC of maybe 11 and 32 HP. He will die against nearly anything in a few rounds and will be able to maybe do 5 or 6 points of damage, Mages without spells are dead weight

Less power and less recovery means less risks taken. I suppose you can try and force them into a megadungeon or something but the players may well simply refuse the adventure and go find something they think they can handle better or go play something else.

Frankly I think it it behooves anyone running D&D or any game really to learn the rules well and to adapt to them and their assumptions rather than trying to nerf things you can't handle.

Otherwise go play something else. E6 on this forum is a great lower powered variant. I rant it with Pathfinder 1.0 and it was great.