Wands of Cure Light? Bah!

[Darklone]

I don't see the problem with the summoning, I see a problem with that dagger. Change it into something similar to the reserve healing feat (heals up to half hitpoints) or let it grant a few temporary hitpoints, and you're fine.

 

[Jack Simth]

Fantastic out of combat healing really isn't that amazing, since Wands of CLW and Wands of Lesser Vigor are already cheap and effective. Unless your entire party is based around Tome of Battle classes and Warlocks, they still need to rest when the spells are used up.

Well, the Druid using a lot of long-duration buffs and Wildshape, or the Cleric using Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell), both playing a melee role, don't need to be narcaleptic. The caster who uses wands heavily, likewise.

But yes - barring Tome of Battle classes, or other classes that have a reasonably high power curve and are based primarily on per-encounter or at-will abilities (the Warlock and Dragon Shaman don't count, as while they've got primarily per-encounter or at-will abilities, they don't have a decent power curve when relying on those abilities), infinite healing doesn't boost overall party power by much, and it boosts the weaker classes more than it boosts the stronger classes (for the most part).

I'd like to think that *actively* attacking your summons would cause an alignment shift,

Me too. So much so, I mentioned it in the Opening Post.

and also break them of just standing there ready to take the hit (I'd assume at that point, you're no longer their 'friend' but now an 'enemy').

Which doesn't actually slow down the tactic, because:

1) We're Summoning CR 1 critters (Small Fire Elementals, say) - with very low attack bonuses and AC (3 and 15, for a Small Fire Elemental) and little damage, while the tactic can't be done until about 9th level (seventh, if you can find a full progression PrC for a pure-classed Wizard that can be taken before 5th level - Wiz-4/Full Progression PrC-2/Wiz-5 will do it). While they can try to fight back, at that point, the elemental attacking the party glass cannon should be in something close to nat-20 territory for a hit, while the party glass cannon should be able to hit the elemental fairly easily.
2) The reserve feat only permits one elemental at a time. If I summon another, the first disappears.
3) Suppose, instead, we use Minor Shapeshift for the temporary HP, and have a party member play a target. As long as everyone keeps the damage per round below the temporary HP boost from Minor Shapeshift (not too hard - Tiny dagger, cast reduce person on the wielder, and you've got 1d2+1+1d6+strength bonus - which maxes out to 9+strength bonus; unequip all strength boosting items, don't power attack, don't sneak attack, and you're about 95% set), we get the same effect, minus tortured elementals (it's a tortured volunteer, instead).
4) Suppose, instead, we arrange for a troll strength-drained (or Charisma-drained, or Wis-drained, or Int-drained, or Dex-drained) down to zero, mount him on a cart, slap a Ring of Sustenance on him, and use him, instead. As long as we don't use anything that actually penetrates his regeneration, we're never going to kill him doing this, so we can keep it up indefinitely.

I can also see *actively* attacking your summons as probably causing a loss of summoning ability, unlike just summoning them to run down a hallway or assist in combat (both of which are likely to damage the summon, but neither *you* or your party are the ones attacking them).

So we use the Minor Shapeshift variant of the tactic, to the same effect. It's a nifty feat, especially for a Gish.

I don't see the problem with the summoning, I see a problem with that dagger. Change it into something similar to the reserve healing feat (heals up to half hitpoints) or let it grant a few temporary hitpoints, and you're fine.

Now that would stop the basic tactic. Tell me, though - what's the reasoning behind stopping the tactic?

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I would approach it as a combination of abusive rules-lawyering and summoning abuse as well.

I'd either disallow it entirely or follow the clever precedent above to have some sort of diety intervention to disallow summoning - either temporarily or permanently.

By RAW it would be allowed, but the DM's job is to adjudicate such things. Such things make great intellectual excercises, but need to be tempered in actual play by some DM common sense, especially when combining rules from supplemental books.

Agree entirely. It's a rules loophole (and a cheesy one at that) that's left to the DM to adjudicate (and close).

 

[Corsair]

Since the question came up: Master Specialist can be taken at level 4.

 

[eamon]

Spending 18000+ gp and a feat to heal at a very slow rate doesn't sound very optimal by any means. The particularly twisted character to whom this inanity would appeal is free to do so - I wouldn't impose any numeric penalty on the character.

Of course, I do wonder what a person would turn into, personality-wise, if he's constantly murdering things and feels a little better each time he does it...

 

[Infiniti2000]

Of course, I do wonder what a person would turn into, personality-wise, if he's constantly murdering things and feels a little better each time he does it...

He's not murdering anything. The summoned creatures are not actually injured because they are not called. Now, if they were called that'd be a different story entirely.

 

[eamon]

He's not murdering anything. The summoned creatures are not actually injured because they are not called. Now, if they were called that'd be a different story entirely.

Sure he's murdering something - it may have no lasting consequences on the victim, but that's not the issue. The issue is simply that a person who spends his day summoning creatures, and then whacking them - all the while getting little positive buzzes for doing so - is being extraordinarily violent, even for a D&D character. It's violence for violence's sake, and that's a little twisted, especially the way it perforce turns into habit, since you'll need to do a lot of hitting if each hit provides only 1d6 healing.

In other words, it's a role-playing issue, and not a game-balance or consistency issue. And there does remain the question of what exactly the impact on the summoned creatures is - do they remember this punishment? The moral issue isn't perfectly clear, and the psychological one is anything but.

So if you're the dark-hero type who likes to punish himself by sleeping on rocks every day, it's perfectly reasonable; but if you're a warm and fuzzy paladin-like type, then you've got some explaining to do.

 

[Dice4Hire]

If my DM did not close that loophole before the player was done explaining it I would walk out of the game right then and there.

 

[Folly]

I do not really understand why people have such an issue with this from a balance point of view (fluff i totally get). For example, an alternative would be Healing Reserve feat (to get characters up to half) and then 18 level 1 pearls of power for 270 out of combat healing (18 pearl * 15 healing (lesser vigor)). Its a rare day you run out of healing with this setup, and you are using all of the rules as intended. The only reason a 10+ party shouldn't have massive amounts of out of combat healing is a lack of trying.

 

[Set]

Of course, I do wonder what a person would turn into, personality-wise, if he's constantly murdering things and feels a little better each time he does it...

No need to wonder. It's right there in the title. 'Vampire' dagger.

Even after he dies, he'll get back up and continue feeding on the deaths of others.