Wands of Cure Light? Bah!

Artoomis said:
I would approach it as a combination of abusive rules-lawyering and summoning abuse as well.

I'd either disallow it entirely or follow the clever precedent above to have some sort of diety intervention to disallow summoning - either temporarily or permanently.

By RAW it would be allowed, but the DM's job is to adjudicate such things. Such things make great intellectual excercises, but need to be tempered in actual play by some DM common sense, especially when combining rules from supplemental books.

Abusive rules lawyering?

1 It is a vampiric weapon.

Thematically this is like a vampire using his summon rats ability to get something to feed on.

The alternative is having them cart around a basket full of snails or whatevers to sacrifice with the dagger at need.

2 I don't see a need for DM adjudication to reign in a +3 weapon that acts like an inefficient out of combat cure light wounds wand. How is this out of combat healing abusive?
 

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Voadam said:
Abusive rules lawyering?

1 It is a vampiric weapon.

Thematically this is like a vampire using his summon rats ability to get something to feed on.

The alternative is having them cart around a basket full of snails or whatevers to sacrifice with the dagger at need.

2 I don't see a need for DM adjudication to reign in a +3 weapon that acts like an inefficient out of combat cure light wounds wand. How is this out of combat healing abusive?


1. Quite right - it is indeed like a vampire using his summon rats ability to get something to feed on. Only different.

2. It might be okay for an evil PC (which I think is a bad idea to start with), but certainly not for anyone else.

Anyway, it would be up to a DM to decide what to do about this sort of thing, if anything. If it were me, I might allow it, but there would be... consequences. Severe consequences. Like losing the summoning capability, or alignment shift, or both, maybe. Or maybe even tweaking the rules so that summoned creatures (those not really here) don't heal you when using your vampiric weapon.
 

It occurs to me that if you are allowed access to the MIC and Reserve feats, and this is the most broken/best method you can come up with for healing, you're either very desperate or not trying very hard.

While this should have some RP consequences if used often, I don't think it's really that big of a deal.
 

I really don't think losing the ability to summon makes any sense in any situation. When you summon a creature, they are not given the choice of coming or not. The prime example would be a CN Caster summoning a devil. The devil would not obey the caster, nevermind let himself be summoned. When you summon a creature, their will is suppressed for the duration of the summon.
 

Deset Gled said:
It occurs to me that if you are allowed access to the MIC and Reserve feats, and this is the most broken/best method you can come up with for healing, you're either very desperate or not trying very hard.

While this should have some RP consequences if used often, I don't think it's really that big of a deal.
There aren't many methods by which to acquire unlimited healing in D&D without custom-made items or carefully selecting your class.

Applying Persistent Spell to Mass Lesser Vigor (or better) will do it for 24 hours (by which point, the Divine Caster that pulled it off can do it again). Generally, you'll need Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) for this. With this method, you're stuck with a particular class (and variations on it), and several feats. Granted, they're very useful feats, and a powerful class, but you're still stuck with a particular set.

There's a Devoted Spirit-1 stance in Tome of Battle that gives free HP healing for you or an ally whenever you strike a successful blow against an opponent in melee (Martial Spirit). You either need to spend two feats to get it, or be a Crusader. Plus, you still need a ready supply of opponents to strike in melee to make it work.

The Binder from Tome of Magic has a binding available that grants the Binder fast healing, and a Cure Light Wounds effect every so often. This ties you to a particular class, and eats up a very significant fraction of the class's resources (the Binder only gets so many bindings at once). If you're doing this, you're playing the band-aid box - and there's little else you can do until around 8th level or so. This is boring.

A Cubic Gate or an Amulet of the Planes can get you to the Positive Energy Plane (or another plane where you get fast healing for free). This is good in that it works for everybody, but it's crazy expensive, and you can't be sure where you'll end up, exactly, when you're coming back - not very useful in a dungeon.

A Dread Necromancer's Charnel Touch grants an Inflict spell, usable at will. Combine with Tomb-Tainted Soul, or the undead type, and you've got unlimited healing. Downside, it requires a feat slot or a racial pick from everyone you want affected, not just the user; additionally, it locks the healer into taking levels in a particular class.

Innate Spell (Complete Arcane) lets you gain a 1/round at-will spell-like ability. Catch: It has three feat prerequisites (Quicken Spell, Still Spell, and Silent Spell) and requires you to permanently lose a spell slot 8 levels higher than the one you're getting. So while the Cleric or Druid could get take Cure Minor Wounds at will, it costs them an 8th level spell slot and four feats to do so. For Cure Light Wounds, it costs a 9th level spell slot and four feats to do so.

Pun-Pun.

That's about it for methods of getting actual unlimited healing. Pretty much everything else has limited charges (wands, staffs, potions, scrolls, and so on) or a daily cap (Belt of Healing, a Cleric's spells per day, Perls of Power, and so on).

This can be done by any caster with a Summoning spell of 4th or higher. Clerics, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, and even Rangers can all pull this off - and that's just of the core spellcasters that can do it. Six of 11 of the base classes in the PHB can eventually do this. It requires one item in the party, one feat from one character in the party, and requires that one spell slot (and possibly spell known) goes unused (held in reserve).

Other than being: A) Evil and B) Slow, the Vampiric Dagger and Elemental Summon Reserve Feat (or minor shapeshift, but you've got to trust your party mates a lot to use that one for it...), it's basically the least expensive in terms of mechanical character limitations while still letting you do the infinite healing gig. And at that, it's still not generally going to be a particularly optimal solution compared to wands of Cure Light Wounds unless you're on a very long campaign.
 

The other reason this is not a particularly optimized method is due to X = infinity. Within the limitations of playing the game, there comes a point X that is effectively equal to infinity. For example, if you swing for 10,000 points of damage, it might as well be infinite damage, since every hit will kill anything. When you start to ask what is a reasonable point to consider infinite you find that the numbers are well within the grasp of most characters.
 

Folly said:
The other reason this is not a particularly optimized method is due to X = infinity. Within the limitations of playing the game, there comes a point X that is effectively equal to infinity. For example, if you swing for 10,000 points of damage, it might as well be infinite damage, since every hit will kill anything. When you start to ask what is a reasonable point to consider infinite you find that the numbers are well within the grasp of most characters.
Oh, definately. I haven't said this is an optimal path by any means - I've even stopped and pointed out that you're liable to be better off with the equivalent expenditure on wands of Cure Light Wounds or wands of Lesser Vigor.

You can get a little over 24 wands of a first level spell for the 18,302 gp this technique costs in market value of items. Lesser Vigor, at caster level 1, heals 11 points of damage per casting. A full wand (50 charges) thus repairs 550 hit points. 24 wands heals 13,200 hit points (over the course of 13,201 rounds... although that can be reduced by healing multiple PC's in paralell). If the party takes an average of 10 damage per encounter per character level spread around the party (that is, 10 points of damage spread around the party in a given encounter at 1st, 20 points of damage spread around the party per encounter at 2nd, and so on), at 13 encounters per level, starting at 9th, you'll hit "break even" during level 16 or 17. If the damage per encounter for the party is below that, it'll be a higher level. If the damage per encounter for the party is above that, it'll be a lower level break-even point vs. Wands of Lesser Vigor.

Cure Light Wounds, at caster level 1, heals an average of 5.5 hit points per casting. A full wand (50 charges) thus repairs 275 hit points on average. 24 wands will, on average, heal 6,600 hit points. If the party takes an average of 10 damage per encounter per character level spread around the party (that is, 10 points of damage spread around the party in a given encounter at 1st, 20 points of damage spread around the party per encounter at 2nd, and so on), at 13 encounters per level, starting at 9th, you'll hit "break even" during level 13 or 14. If the damage per encounter for the party is below that, it'll be a higher level. If the damage per encounter for the party is above that, it'll be a lower level break-even point vs. Wands of Cure Light Wounds.

To go all the way from 9th to 20th, your "healing pool" (same assumptions) for effective infinite healing needs to be in the neighborhood of 20,000 hit points - about 72 wands of Cure Light Wounds (call it 54,000 gp), or about 36 wands of Lesser Vigor (call it 27,000 gp). Less if your average damage per encounter is lower, more if your average damage per encounter is higher.
 

I can't believe so many people want to punish this use of summoning. The only way summoning works is if it doesn't harm what was summoned, and WotC thankfully recognized this and put that in the rules. Otherwise, it nerfs those summoners hard.

For instance, suppose the all-good party is fighting a Balor, and the Druid uses an SNA 1 to summon a wolf that will provide flanking to the Rogue. This happens, the Rogue gets a round of sneak attack off, and then the Balor drops the poor fluffy wolf to -50 HP in one hit. Should the Druid lose the ability to summon? By what some of you guys have been saying, yes: she's putting the wolf in a situation where it'll be "killed" (if you think there's a difference, what about summoning the wolf into a room to kill a CR1/4 kobold, but once that kobold dies the room instantly fills with acid? I highly doubt you can come up with a bright line). Now here's a tricky exercise: what creatures can she summon in this situation without triggering the "oh no she's harming cute forest creatures so she must be punished" clause? SNA 9 only summons CR9 creatures, which are little match for the might of a CR20 Balor. I guess she's SOL? Even if you make some definite limit, that makes all the lower level SNA spells completely useless at higher levels.
 

Zelc said:
I can't believe so many people want to punish this use of summoning.
There's a couple of basic reasons for it that I'm aware of.

1) It's evil. You're summoning something for the express purpose of causing it pain to your own gain, at a time when there is no pressing need. And then you do it again. And again. And again. And again... until everyone in the party is completely healed (which, at 1d6 per strike, can take a very long time). The DM's who are thinking along these lines are quite reasonable.
2) Infinite healing worries most DM's. It's hard to make a Barbarian sweat a CR appropriate encounter if he's assured of getting all his HP back after the fight is over. Most the DM's who are thinking along these lines are looking at how much this boosts such classes, and not accounting for how far they are behind the Full Casters to begin with... and that the infinite healing doesn't help the Full Casters nearly as much as it does everyone else.
 

Jack Simth said:
It's evil.
No, not at all. You can do whatever you please to your own spell effects. I see no difference between "I brought you here to die for 24 hours" and "I brought you here to die for 24 hours." They're identical situations. In one case you're saving your own life by healing up and in the other case you're saving your own life by causing a flank on the balor. You're begging the question when you talk about 'gain'.
 

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