Want to know the exact expected damage for your fighter? (DND 3e)

[tarchon]

cool! Thanks for the link =]

Playing around with mine, it seems that 2 weapon fighting is very underpowered. It very occasionally outperforms one two-handed weapon, but given that you have to spend twice as much money and more than double the feats it's more trouble than it's worth.

Not at all. In most practical cases it's better than two-handed fighting. You have to consider what the AC of a typical opponent is, and it's not usually in that 3-5 AC range where THF tends to be better, unless the character is particularly strong. For half-orc barbarians with Bull's Strength, TWF is indeed less attractive, but for the Ranger who tends to be less of a tank, it makes much sense.

For example, I took the Ranger 5/Rogue 5 in our group, gave him two 1d6 short swords (without his sneak attack and their extra dmg dice). +8 BAB, +3 Str bonus. For any AC less than 28, TWF is better. (Obviously, for Full Attacks.)

Granted, for ACs 28-30, two-handed is better, but out of all the creatures he encounters at his level, how many of them have one of those 3 ACs? Not many. Even if I give him a full Bull's Str, +5, the THF optimality range only increases to AC 29-32.

A general rule of thumb is that you look at the AC that requires a 20 to hit (31 in this case). From ACs 1-2 less than that down to about 5 less than that, THF is commonly better. For all other AC values, TWF is usually better. The points at which the optimal form changes vary a little bit, but generally, the penalty for choosing the wrong form near the lower limit is small. It's a different story at the upper limit, but if you're fighting at the upper limit, you're dead meat anyway.

Now I'm not talking about half-giants with gargantuan mercurial greatswords and 5 feats I never heard of from some obscure supplement, but for typical PCs in typical situations, TWF usually gives more damage.

 

[robgmsft]

Interesting thoughts Tarchon! I agree with your AC range thinking - most creatures in the MM are AC17-AC23 regardless of level.

Here's the 1 v 2 case with your 10th level rogue/ranger listed below (I don't know how this will turn out yet). =]

From pg 145 of the DMG, 10th level characters get about 49,000gp. ASsuming 1/3 weapons 1/3 armor 1/3 misc that gives about 18,300gp for weapons.

So roughly a TWF 10th level would get two +2s and a THF would get one +3. Sticking with martial PHB weapons, I'll choose the greatsword for comparison

Damages are listed from AC 15 through AC 25 in order

Case 1: Two +2 short swords (Focus, Ambi, TWF)
20.9, 19.6, 18.3, 17.0, 15.8, 14.5, 13.2, 11.9, 10.6, 9.3, 8.0

Case 2: One +3 Greatsword (Focus)
26.2, 25.4, 23.9, 22.3, 20.8, 19.2, 17.7, 16.2, 14.6, 13.1, 11.6

Case 3: Two +1 elemental short swords (Focus, Ambi, TWF)
25.2, 23.5, 21.8, 20.2, 18.5, 16.9, 15.2, 13.6, 11.9, 10.3, 8.6

Case 4: One +1 double elemental Greatsword (Focus)
33.3, 31.3, 29.3, 27.3, 25.2, 23.2, 21.2, 19.2, 17.2, 15.2, 13.1

Case 5: Two +1 2x Elemental Shortswords (Focus, Ambi, TWF)
33.2, 31, 28.8, 26.7, 24.5, 22.3, 20.1, 18, 15.8, 13.6, 11.4

Case 6: Two +2 Shortswords +3d6 sneak attack (Foc, Amb, TWF)
46.7, 43.8, 40.9, 38, 35.2, 32.3, 29.4, 26.6, 23.7, 20.8, 18

Case 7: +3 Greatsword +3d6 sneak attack (focus)
44, 42.7, 40.1, 37.6, 35, 32.4, 29.8, 27.2, 24.6, 22, 19.4

So it looks like the TWF doesn't make sense for most cases. Even when given two +3 equivalent shortswords it still doesn't beat a +1 flaming shock greatsword. Also, the minimal gain from souble weapon sneak attack doesn't seem to justify the additional cost in feats.

I really haven't closed my mind on this issue - so if you have additional thoughts I'd love to hear them!!

 

[robgmsft]

Can't... do... math... that would be 16,300 gp but let's just say they threw in the extra 2000gp onto their weapons. =]

 

[robgmsft]

And yes, the RP concept of a greatsword-wielding ranger/rogue sneaking up and back-slashing a foe is a wee bit silly. =] This is purely a math argument...

 

[tarchon]

Damages are listed from AC 15 through AC 25 in order

Case 1: Two +2 short swords (Focus, Ambi, TWF)
20.9, 19.6, 18.3, 17.0, 15.8, 14.5, 13.2, 11.9, 10.6, 9.3, 8.0

Case 2: One +3 Greatsword (Focus)
26.2, 25.4, 23.9, 22.3, 20.8, 19.2, 17.7, 16.2, 14.6, 13.1, 11.6

What you're arguing though is that if you're designing this character to maximize damage, regardless of other constraints, the two-handed approach is usually better. And if we're talking in terms of designing the character that absolutely maximizes damage without respect to any other constraints, I think that could be true.
What I'm saying is that there are characters (and many of them) for which TWF is usually a better option than THF. Just as an example of what I mean, giving this character the greatsword might be nice for maximizing his damage, but he can't in fact use a greatsword in one hand, which severely restricts the utility of alternating between weapon/shield and shieldless fighting, depending on the circumstance. If you don't want to have a character designed to fight best with a greatsword, the TWF option can offer you nearly the same punch without it. Improved TWF (which would be available for many variations of this character) also is a much better choice for high level TWF characters than Weapon Focus, usually comparable to the TH greatsword even.

For your cases one and two the numbers look off...
One +3 TH Greatsword (focus) w/o crits against AC 15:
+8+3+3+1=+15/+10 to hit, mean dmg (7+4+3)=14. 14*(19/20+16/20)=24.5.

Two +2 short sword (focus) w/o crits against AC 15:
+8+3+2+1-2=+12/+12/+7 to hit, mean dmg. (3.5+3+2)=8.5. 8.5*(18/20+18/20+13/20)=20.825

In each case the crits should multiply the dmg by 1.1 (2x, 19-20), giving 26.95 and 22.9075, respectively. You got 26.2 and 20.9. There's a discrepancy somewhere..

 

[robgmsft]

Tarchon, we each have a bug. =] Thanks for catching this one!

My bug: I wasn't accounting for the additional + to hit after +2 (was staying as +2 to hit, +n damage).

Your bug is that it isn't 8.5 expected damage from the left hand, it's 6.5 (3.5+1+2) - off hand weapons get .5 * strMod round down (in this case +1 instead of +3)

So, revised:

Case 2: One +3 Greatsword (Focus)
27, 26.2, 25.4, 23.9, 22.3, 20.8, 19.2, 17.7, 16.2, 14.6, 13.1

Case 7: +3 Greatsword +3d6 sneak attack (focus)
45.3, 44, 42.7, 40.1, 37.6, 35, 32.4, 29.8, 27.2, 24.6, 22

The other cases stay the same.

I definitely see your point about the additional flexibility of the two weapon fighting style. However, let's look at adding "Ranger's Two Weapon Specialization" - a +2 to hit when using TWF only available at 4th level:

Case 1: Two +2 short swords (Focus, Ambi, TWF, RTWS)
22.7, 22.2 20.9, 19.6, 18.3, 17.0, 15.8, 14.5, 13.2, 11.9, 10.6

Case 2: One +3 Greatsword (Focus)
27, 26.2, 25.4, 23.9, 22.3, 20.8, 19.2, 17.7, 16.2, 14.6, 13.1

Case 3: Two +1 elemental short swords (Focus, Ambi, TWF, RTWS)
28.5, 26.8, 25.2, 23.5, 21.8, 20.2, 18.5, 16.9, 15.2, 13.6, 11.9

Case 4: One +1 double elemental Greatsword (Focus)
33.3, 31.3, 29.3, 27.3, 25.2, 23.2, 21.2, 19.2, 17.2, 15.2, 13.1

Case 5: Two +1 double elemental Shortswords (Focus, Ambi, TWF, RTWS)
37.6, 35.4, 33.2, 31, 28.8, 26.7, 24.5, 22.3, 20.1, 18, 15.8

Case 6: Two +2 Shortswords +3d6 sneak attack (Foc, Amb, TWF, RTWS)
50.5, 49.5, 46.7, 43.8, 40.9, 38, 35.2, 32.3, 29.4, 26.6, 23.7

Case 7: +3 Greatsword +3d6 sneak attack (focus)
45.3, 44, 42.7, 40.1, 37.6, 35, 32.4, 29.8, 27.2, 24.6, 22

Now we're cooking with gas. =] Of course, we need to check again next level (BAB +9) when the ranger/rogue picks up improved two weapon fighting:

Case 8: Two +2 Shortswords (Focus, Ambi, TWF, ITWF, BAB9)
27.2, 25.6, 23.9, 22.3, 20.6, 19, 17.3, 15.7, 14, 12.4, 10.7

Case 9: Two +2 Shortswords (Focus, Ambi, TWF, ITWF, RTWS, BAB9)
28.9, 28, 27.2, 25.6, 23.9, 22.3, 20.6, 19, 17.3, 15.7, 14, 12.4

Case 10: +3 Greatsword (Focus, BAB9)
27.7, 27, 26.2, 25.4, 23.9, 22.3, 20.8, 19.2, 17.7, 16.2, 14.6

This is fun. =]

 

[robgmsft]

Heh, forgot the conclusion. Given the above data, I believe that a new "Two Weapon Focus" feat which gives a +2 to hit when using two weapon fighting and is only available at ranger lvl4+ gives a great incentive to hit 4th level in ranger and balances out TWF to make it desirable and interesting.

Prerequisite: Ranger lvl 4+, weapon focus
Effect: +2 to hit for all attacks when two weapon fighting

 

[robgmsft]

Just for fun, a pure 10th level rogue with +3 StrMod, +7/+2 BAB, Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus Shortsword.

Case 1: Two +1 elemental short swords
23.5, 21.8, 20.2, 18.5, 16.9, 15.2, 13.6, 11.9, 10.3, 8.6, 7

Case 2: Two +1 elemental short swords with +5d6 sneak attack
61.1, 56.8, 52.6, 48.3, 44, 39.7, 35.5, 31.2, 26.9, 22.6, 18.3

Revisiting this rogue at 12th level with +9 BAB and ITWF

Case 3: Two +1 double elemental short swords with +6d6 sneak attack
109, 101.9, 94.9, 87.9, 80.8, 73.8, 66.8, 59.8, 52.7, 45.7, 38.7

Wowza. If this rogue can sneak attack, watch out!