Wanting players to take in-game religion more seriously

[MechaTarrasque]

I am not so sure that your average dirt farmer in most D&D worlds actually has any more proof that the gods exist than the average dirt farmer in Homer's time in ancient Greece had (at least in 5e). Remember not every guy out in the woods is a ranger, not every smuck with a sword is a fighter, not every kid with a ouiji board is a warlock, not every singer is a bard, all halflings aren't sorcerers (despite being "lucky" and "being lucky" is basically the sorcerer's origin), even all "barbarians" aren't barbarians, so not every village priest is a cleric. The cleric is an extra special priest who gets rewarded with power from his/her god. It isn't too hard to make that "years of faith, then the burning bush talks to you and you are casting spells."

To be honest, most of the population might not have actual proof that magic exists--that is something that happens far away. Unless I missed it, most of those worlds lack an Internet, so most people are just hearing stories from people with authority.

 

[GameOgre]

In today's time with factual evidence to back up events there are still people who doubt the trips to the moon, who doubt any ship or probe we have ever sent into space is real, who doubt the holocaust,who doubt 9/11, who doubt evolution or vaccines or any number of vast other events.

I have no doubt that if D&D was real somewhere a lot of the people there would doubt the existence of the gods. Even if they were to see a Priest bringing back the dead i'm sure there would be people in the back saying" you see that there Billy Ray bring that there dead fella back from the beyond? I sure did! Billy Ray was always doing them there strange things.

Don't you believe a word of that Lathander Mumbo Jumbo either. Billy Ray was always blaming everything on some otherworldly power back in the day to. He just don't want folks come calling at all hours fo the night with their sour feet and bad elbows. Mark my words them there Gods aint real."

 

[CapnZapp]

I didn't misunderstand a thing. You seem to not understand that people today worship those gods. I don't know much about modern neo-Hellenic paganism, but Norse/Germanic neo-paganism is a sizable and growing faith. In your post, you insulted our gods and those of us who worship them, in order to make a point that certainly required no such insulting language to make.

Rather than further bringing insult insult with your "think again" crap, maybe just recognize that regardless of intention, you spoke insultingly, and apologize.

No.

Please take your real-world beliefs - and especially your religious sensibilities - out of this gaming discussion.

Thank you.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There's a third option: real-life religious faith that makes offensive the idea of children of God worshipping things that don't exist or have no power to save/exalt. You see this attitude throughout the whole Old Testament: Elijah mocking the priests of Baal; Jeremiah virtually tearing his hair out over the Israelites bowing down before treestumps and rocks that cannot save them.

It's not even clear to me what D&D "worship" is supposed to entail. Real-life worship* is veneration and faithful emulation of someone you respect and admire. "Worship" as discussed in WotC products and D&D forums doesn't seem to have anything to do with that; there's barely any effort at all to make the gods worthy of admiration in the first place, and even less emphasis on emulation; and the fact that the gods are neither omniscient nor omnipotent makes them in fact unable to keep their promises and unworthy of true worship.

The first paragraph makes a good point. For many, pretending to worship a fake god isn't distinct enough from blasphemy to be entirely comfortable. At best, for such ppl, it is the same as making a blasphemous statement. Can perhaps be funny if no one takes it seriously, in the right setting and context, but any even superficial seriousness makes it an uncomfortable thing to do for some devout people. It never bothered me, when I worshipped a jealous God, bc I figured he knew it was just a game, but I know ppl who are only comfortable playing a devout Sune worshipper if they don't take the character's faith seriously. Doesn't matter if that makes sense to anyone else. That person has every right to not do a thing that makes them uncomfortable.

Re: RL worship, I agree with some of that, but the last statement is just patently false. Omniscience and omnipotence are not a prerequisite of deserving true worship. They only would be if you defined worship as something more like absolute devotion and obedience, etc. the gods needn't be either of those to be worthy of veneration or faithful emulation.

to be clear, I'm not offended or anything. We live in a society that is very strongly influenced by the philosophies of the Abrahamic faiths, and some level of cultural bias is basically inevitable.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

No.

Please take your real-world beliefs - and especially your religious sensibilities - out of this gaming discussion.

Thank you.

You brought them into the discussion when you insulted real world faiths to make your point. Now you accuse me of making it about my religious sensibilities when I call you on that and ask for an apology? What utter nonsense!

Insulting people's religious beliefs is a violation of the forum rules, not to mention the rules of *basic* social decency.

 

[CapnZapp]

This is mostly a good post, but could you provide evidence to back up the claim of a prevalent disregard for the Aesir, and esp the view of Odin as "outright treacherous"?

Please don't Yaarel, he's just trying to wrench the discussion away from D&D and towards real-life religions.

Doctor Badwolf, please assume nobody here has "an interest in dismissing Norse/Germanic paganism".

We're just D&D gamers discussing pretend religion. Nothing more.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I have one player who is the only one who puts any effort into playing a religious character. Unfortunately no matter what setting we play in he always worships Herionous from Greyhawk. I just let him run with it and most NPC they run into assumes he worships some unknown deity or something.

 

[Umbran]

You brought them into the discussion when you insulted real world faiths to make your point. Now you accuse me of making it about my religious sensibilities when I call you on that and ask for an apology? What utter nonsense!

Insulting people's religious beliefs is a violation of the forum rules, not to mention the rules of *basic* social decency.

I addressed this back in post 82. At this point, you are re-inserting it to a discussion that was told to drop it. Your demand for public apology is inappropriate. Please stop. Let it go. Move on.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Re: RL worship, I agree with some of that, but the last statement is just patently false. Omniscience and omnipotence are not a prerequisite of deserving true worship. They only would be if you defined worship as something more like absolute devotion and obedience, etc. the gods needn't be either of those to be worthy of veneration or faithful emulation.

Hmmm. I suppose it depends on what your ultimate ambitions are. I take your point--you could worship a flawed being (e.g. your wife, your dad, a powerful leader) if you are content with their limitations (e.g. guidance is sometimes false). In short, I accidentally expressed a personal opinion about my own standards in the middle of a paragraph that was intended to be somewhat impersonal/generally applicable. Apologies for the confusion--my mistake.

 

[Bawylie]

Dear OP,

It seems to me that the issue you're having isn't about in-game religiosity necessarily. It's about Tone and Credibility.

(There's a lot of good advice and I'll just take this opportunity to add my support about having a talk with your players about your game).

But apart from that, my guess is that the players aren't taking the tone seriously because the religious component lacks credibility. Not realism (I'm not suggesting holy days, rites, or real world analogues).

If you want religion (or anything) to feel real in the world you're creating, you may need to take steps to make its presence felt.

To start, I'd list the various gods and write them up as NPCs. (For me, I'd call them deities, instead). I'd also give them very clearly understood motivations and desires. These are going to ripple out to their worshippers and holy places.

I'll use Moradin for an example. He'll be the deity of dwarves. He Defends the clans and Creates exemplary things.

The dwarves know and love their deity, like a grandfather/best drinking buddy. They all know he's looking out for them. Perhaps, when in a holy site, Dwarves take half damage from all sources, as Moradin's desire is to Defend them. Maybe forges will be adorned with symbols of Moradin, because he guides their hands when they craft. They know it, they feel it. They take it seriously, even if they've never met him.

When your players encounter dwarves, refer to these phenomenon, casually an conversationally. "This shield is twice the price. It was forged by Arik Firehand, and she's got Moradin's blessing on her - this one won't splinter or crack, I'll bet my beard."

You reinforce the religious components with tone, with some in-game noticeable and measurable effects, and you build credibility.

Once you have credibility, people take the stuff seriously.

Now, all that's just AN approach. There are plenty of ways to keep tone and build credibility. But all of them will involve consistent demonstrations of qualities you want taken seriously.

Good luck!


-Brad