Imaculata
Hero
There's no reason why the D&D world could not have heretics who question the existence of the gods.
Wanting players to take in-game religion more seriously
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There's no reason why the D&D world could not have heretics who question the existence of the gods.
Olrox17
Hero
In an average D&D world, such as Forgotten Realms' Toril, only a madman would question the existence of the gods. An non-mad heretic might refuse to worship the gods, or even refuse to address them as gods, but wouldn't question their existence.
The followers of AO in Forgotten Realms might be a good example of an heretic that makes sense. They prefer to worship the overgod, even if that means getting no spell or favors whatsoever. They don't go around insulting other people's faith, though.
Arial Black
Adventurer
When I read Greek myth I am constantly bemused by the astonishing level of foolishnss displayed by a people who should know better!
"Oh, I'm such a brilliant weaver, me! I'm a much better weaver than Athena, the typically vengeful Greek goddess of weaving!"
"Oh, my daughter is so beautiful! She's even more beautiful than Aphrodite, the not-at-all vain and jealous goddess who's shagging the God Of War on the side!"
What could possibly go wrong?
But these stories were told to Greek children to warn them against that kind of bragging and disrespect.
In D&D, the gods are real and can come and get you for any real or imagined slight. Just because they usually don't (or have their servants do it for them) doesn't take away the memories of those terrible times when they did turn up!
The NPCs of the D&D worlds aren't the kinds of populations who want to take chances about this stuff. If the players have their characters act disrespectfully, then the NPCs won't like that one bit, and will react realistically.
Imaculata
Hero
I think that is entirely in the hands of the DM, and how the DM presents the gods, regardless of setting.
Olrox17
Hero
That's why I said average, and why I cited the most popular "standard" setting, Forgotten Realms. Obviously, a DM can change whatever he wants, and many campaign settings have peculiar approach to gods & pantheons (Dark Sun, Eberron etc).
CapnZapp
Legend
Hmm. I don't see that I'm getting my point completely across.
I think I need to offer an example, and so I will have to mention a game after all.
Take Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play (specifically talking about the rpg now, not the minis game. And even more specifically, I'm talking about the original 1st edition).
At first blush, you might think the Old World is much like the standard D&D worlds as regards religion, the gods, and magic. You have priests. They get spells. The gods have portfolios, interests, enemies. And so on.
Yet, everything is different.
The gods never run around in the game world, stealing your daughters, bedding your wife, and turning your sons into monsters. For starters. So you can never say for sure the gods exist. That is a deliberate design choice made by the authors, who understood how this actually helps you portray a religious character. Because with uncertainty you can have actual faith.
But there's more. How about the spells the clerics and priests cast, you might wonder? Well, here's the clincher - the game presents a possibly conspiracy theory claiming that all magic actually is chaos energy. That is, the black stuff, the corrupting influence, the daemonic energies.
This is what I'm talking about. You have a group of game designers that realize the naive D&D approach will not and can not lead to believable belief. And so they offer an out.
Not to shaft religious-minded players. To enable them.
(It doesn't matter whether this theory is actually true or not. The important thing is that despite having gods like Odin (Ulric), Poseidon or Neptune (Manann), Hades (Morr), and Athena (Verena), you can still have people doubting the existence of the gods, and even the existence of goodness itself.
Which is precisely what you need for the reverse - religiously devout characters.
Here we have a game that intelligently realizes that there must be uncertainty for faith to exist. I'm not saying you should play WFRP. That's just my example here and now - there are plenty other games that share that crucial insight in what you need to portray religion in a believable way.
I think I need to offer an example, and so I will have to mention a game after all.
Take Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play (specifically talking about the rpg now, not the minis game. And even more specifically, I'm talking about the original 1st edition).
At first blush, you might think the Old World is much like the standard D&D worlds as regards religion, the gods, and magic. You have priests. They get spells. The gods have portfolios, interests, enemies. And so on.
Yet, everything is different.
The gods never run around in the game world, stealing your daughters, bedding your wife, and turning your sons into monsters. For starters. So you can never say for sure the gods exist. That is a deliberate design choice made by the authors, who understood how this actually helps you portray a religious character. Because with uncertainty you can have actual faith.
But there's more. How about the spells the clerics and priests cast, you might wonder? Well, here's the clincher - the game presents a possibly conspiracy theory claiming that all magic actually is chaos energy. That is, the black stuff, the corrupting influence, the daemonic energies.
This is what I'm talking about. You have a group of game designers that realize the naive D&D approach will not and can not lead to believable belief. And so they offer an out.
Not to shaft religious-minded players. To enable them.
(It doesn't matter whether this theory is actually true or not. The important thing is that despite having gods like Odin (Ulric), Poseidon or Neptune (Manann), Hades (Morr), and Athena (Verena), you can still have people doubting the existence of the gods, and even the existence of goodness itself.
Which is precisely what you need for the reverse - religiously devout characters.
Here we have a game that intelligently realizes that there must be uncertainty for faith to exist. I'm not saying you should play WFRP. That's just my example here and now - there are plenty other games that share that crucial insight in what you need to portray religion in a believable way.
Yaarel
🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage
Even in polytheistic cultures, you had prominent spiritual traditions, like Socrates and Buddha, who explained why the gods were ridiculous and unworthy of worship.
Various Greek philosophies, associating with Cynicism, Stoicism, Epicurianism, and so on, could be explicitly atheistic.
There are tombstones across the Greek-speaking world, whose inscriptions are explicitly atheistic, sometimes with Stoic wisdom, and sometimes with heart-wrenching grief.
In the Norse world, disregard for the Aesir sky spirits is prevalent, while viewing Odinn as outright treacherous. Indeed, the tradition anticipated the doom of all the Aesir, and encouraged humans to ‘make their own fates’. It is a remarkably rugged worldview.
Moreover, abstract monotheism is everywhere, from India to Iceland, and in the Americas if you count concepts like the Great Mystery. In China too, if you count concepts like the Dao.
The point is, a D&D campaign setting feels more realistic, and in my view becomes more aesthetic, when religious diversity prevails, and different communities focus on unique ways of life. This especially goes for players deciding their own worldviews for their own character concepts.
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Olrox17
Hero
I 'll try to better explain myself, as well.
I love Warhammer lore. Never had a chance to play the RPG, but it sounds like a great campaign setting. And yes, uncertainty over the existence of gods can add to roleplay. Dark sun does it, and it's cool. I agree with your post.
All my previous posts and opinions are based on the assumption that we are talking about a "standard" D&D world. Forgotten Realms-esque, if you want. By reading the OP's posts, I got the distinct impression that his game world follows "standard" D&D tropes in regard of religion. That's what i based my advice on.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Well, not exactly the opposite. That's like saying the opposite of the middle is the end: it's kind of true, if you squint, but most people would say that the opposite of the end is the other end.
Faith is an intermediate state--it is the belief in things which are not seen, which are true. As such, there is fundamentally no difference between D&D and real life when it comes to epistemology; the inhabitants of a D&D world can be as certain or uncertain about their reality as you or I. (Non-religious example: when a D&D character reasons "cogito, ergo sum", is his logic invalid? But his conclusion is wrong.) The only difference is that the DM is in a position to objectively evaluate whose faith is grounded in reality and whose is founded on falsehood; but the DM's knowledge isn't shared by the PCs or NPCs.
The point is, religion is not opposed to certainty. Some religions actively seek it. "...and [after witnessing proof] he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting."
