Warforged ECL 0???? Yeah right!!!!

[I'm A Banana]

Maybe your players are very concerned about these poisons, I dunno. I'm not petrified of having a scorpion in my boot, even with a non warforge. Druids and Monks are immune to poison. Poison DC's are pitifully low, you'd need to roll a 1 to fail, and if I thought the entire campaign was based on it, I'd splurge on the PHB II feat that lets you not fail saves on a 1.

A 5% chance is psychologically significant for the player. People have been saying, even in this thread, that there's "something special" about immunities. And I wouldn't have as much of a problem with a warforged who is *very resistant* to these things.

You're comparing an 8th level character's abilities to the abilities at ECL +0 and finding that they're not far off? Doesn't that kind of make my point for me? that if you need 3 classes and thousands of XP and specific feats to pull this off, that any other player would have to invest maybe at least some racial HD or LA to become even better?

I think the argument is weak. Warforged arent too powerful, they are different. If you want your players to be worried about where they get their next meal, ala Midnight, Warforged arent for your campaign, just say no. No need to go on a tirade about all Warforged in all campaigns.

It's a nice stawman, but I've been very clear about my statement that the warforged are not too powerful, but that they are very inappropriate for many campaigns and that this is why they have been poorly designed as a PC race (because a PC race should be appropriate for the vast majority of campaigns, serving, as it does, as one of the foundations of character design). At the very least, the warforged should be appropriate for most Eberron campaigns, but the very pulpy adventure of raiding lost temples in steamy jungles is pretty much inappropriate for them. It is because of binary, idiot-savant design.

There is no need to go on a tirade about all warforged in all campaigns. Where have I done that?

My homebrew has no Halflings, because they dont exist. Mostly because I HATE halflings, and hobbits, with a passion, but I dont rail against the halfling, to all who will listen, because my hatred for them is irrational.

Meanwhile, my dislike of specific mechanics that the warforged use is entirely rational, and my desire to see the mistake either corrected or at the very least not repeated in future products is entirely my right to express on this message board.

You seem to agree with me, since you do say that the warforged aren't for some campaigns because of their immunities. I simply go to the step of saying that this makes them poorly designed, since some of the campaigns they don't fit in are otherwise fine campaigns for Eberron to have.

 

[amethal]

So you introduce things like poisons and diseases with SR (like Nyambe, set in Africa, did).

Spell Resistance?

What level spell resistance are we looking at?

 

[Fedifensor]

If the warforged immunities bother you, come up with different encounters. more Rust Monsters

The first thing the Warforged Juggernaut in our group asked our Artificer to make was a Gauntlet of Rust. VERY handy for warforged....

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#gauntletofRust

The problem is that when other party members are working on minimizing their vulnerabilities to things the warforged are immune to, the warforged can do the same - and they start out with a lot less vulnerabilities than a human.

Also, an artificer is to a warforged what a cleric is to a human...and the artificer can prevent a ton of damage with Stone Construct and Iron Construct.

Finally, when you combine Warforged with the Warforged Juggernaut PrC, the immunity issue gets even worse. Immune to mind-affecting spells is just amazingly broken...

 

[I'm A Banana]

Spell Resistance?

What level spell resistance are we looking at?

The logic runs that the viruses, in a world with disease-curing magic, would develop magic-resistant strains to survive.

I don't have Nyambe on me, but most "mundane" diseases would get something in the 12-17 range. The beauty is that it allows for more potent diseases as well. Something like a new strain of some crippling stomach flu discovered in an estuary running deep into the jungle might have an SR of 20+. An infestation of horrid maggots you got when you went to clean your sword wounds in that lake might have an SR of 25 or more.

Most common diseases are still treatable with Remove Disease, but in any campaign that plans on using diseases as a threat, SR comes in handy.

The same is true for poisons. Maybe the scorpion in your boot only carries a poison with an SR of 15, but the rare doom spider in the blackleaf forest might carry an SR 27 venom that no known healer is powerful enough to cure.

Spell Penetration is a popular feat for medics.

 

[jmucchiello]

It's a nice stawman, but I've been very clear about my statement that the warforged are not too powerful, but that they are very inappropriate for many campaigns and that this is why they have been poorly designed as a PC race (because a PC race should be appropriate for the vast majority of campaigns, serving, as it does, as one of the foundations of character design).

While following this thread I've wanted to disagree with KM but haven't found the reason. This is it. I would agree with you if warforged were a PHB race. A PHB race should be broadly acceptable. But just because a race is appropriate to a seemingly narrow set of campaign settings does not invalidate the race as a PC race. By this logic PCs should NEVER play a centaur since quadripeds cause all sorts of troubles in various campaigns (human-centric court intrigue, dungeon crawls, anything mostly indoors, etc). Are you saying that a centaur PC race is poorly designed since the centaur cannot handle a variety of campaign types? I must humbly disagree.

Your argument is that the warforged is binary in its acceptability in a campaign. So what? There are campaigns were elves, dwarves and even humans are inappropriate. This does not make those races poorly designed. It just makes them inappropriate. You have stated that you think the LA+0 of the warforged is basically accurate: from a purely mechanical standpoint, the race is properly designed. Rule 0 is always there to say whether or not each and every game element is appropriate to a specific campaign.

 

[wildstarsreach]

The logic runs that the viruses, in a world with disease-curing magic, would develop magic-resistant strains to survive.

I don't have Nyambe on me, but most "mundane" diseases would get something in the 12-17 range. The beauty is that it allows for more potent diseases as well. Something like a new strain of some crippling stomach flu discovered in an estuary running deep into the jungle might have an SR of 20+. An infestation of horrid maggots you got when you went to clean your sword wounds in that lake might have an SR of 25 or more.

Most common diseases are still treatable with Remove Disease, but in any campaign that plans on using diseases as a threat, SR comes in handy.

The same is true for poisons. Maybe the scorpion in your boot only carries a poison with an SR of 15, but the rare doom spider in the blackleaf forest might carry an SR 27 venom that no known healer is powerful enough to cure.

Spell Penetration is a popular feat for medics.

These are addressed in the DC of the disease or poison. To start making that poisons or diseases would in and of themselves have SR would begin to add a complexity to the game that you probably don't want. What happens if a creature has SR himself? Would the magical component of the poison/disease then be inert since it could not overcome the SR?

I would still say though that a creature immune to poisons would still be immune to magically resistant poisons. It doesn't solve your problem.

 

[Stone Dog]

My rough HR solve for the juggernaut is making it mandatory to finish the class. It is a transformative effort that demands dedication to see it through all the way. If you stop progressing in the transformation then your body falls back to normal and you lost all Juggy class abilities and NEVER get to try again (the "module" that allows the transformation burns out). After that it is a one way trip since I also subscribe to the vision that a Jugger-5 can't be raised or rezzed.

 

[Fedifensor]

My rough HR solve for the juggernaut is making it mandatory to finish the class. It is a transformative effort that demands dedication to see it through all the way. If you stop progressing in the transformation then your body falls back to normal and you lost all Juggy class abilities and NEVER get to try again (the "module" that allows the transformation burns out).

Not really an issue in our campaign - the player really wants to finish out the class. He's willing to sacrifice the extra point of BAB to get ability damage/ability drain immunity, and the free feat (Greater Powerful Charge) is a plus as well. He's playing a Warforged Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Warforged Juggernaut 4, and we're just about to hit 10th level. Oh, did I mention that the immunity to fatigue means the character rages with no penalty once the rage is over...?

After that it is a one way trip since I also subscribe to the vision that a Jugger-5 can't be raised or rezzed.

Even if you subscribe to that opinion, a warforged can still be brought back with Miracle or Wish. Very hard to do (especially in Eberron), but Jaela of the Silver Flame still owes us for saving her. Besides, if the warforged has Stone Construct or Iron Construct cast on it by the Artificer, it's very hard to take the character from positive HP to the -10 threshold in a single shot.

 

[I'm A Banana]

While following this thread I've wanted to disagree with KM but haven't found the reason. This is it. I would agree with you if warforged were a PHB race. A PHB race should be broadly acceptable. But just because a race is appropriate to a seemingly narrow set of campaign settings does not invalidate the race as a PC race. By this logic PCs should NEVER play a centaur since quadripeds cause all sorts of troubles in various campaigns (human-centric court intrigue, dungeon crawls, anything mostly indoors, etc). Are you saying that a centaur PC race is poorly designed since the centaur cannot handle a variety of campaign types? I must humbly disagree.

Well, centaurs certainly don't cause as many problems as immune creatures. They can't fit in tight spaces, but most campaigns are designed at least partially with horses and other Large mounts in mind, whereas most campaigns are going to have to regard creatures that don't breathe, eat, or have a biological system as exceptional. It'd be a better comparison to say that a PC should NEVER play a fire elemental, and that a fire elemental is poorly designed as a PC race.

NEVER is a strong word, and I definately wouldn't say that the warforged should NEVER be played as written (indeed, many people do and have a good time and that's good). I just argue that their abilities remove them from adventures that would otherwise be suitable. If the only reason that Expedition to Castle Ravenloft won't work in an Eberron game is because of warforged not being challenged enough, or if the only reason a pulpy Indiana-Jones-style temple raid doesn't work as written is because the warforged throws a wrench in the plans, this begins to be come a big issue. Quadrupeds don't do that very often (they're more in the elf-immunity-to-sleep category).

I would say that a setting that gave me a large quadruped race at level 1 and told me that it was on par with the PHB races would be out of line. Warforged make the mistake by having a lot of construct immunities and telling me that they'll work just like a changeling, or a gnome (by not giving it LA).

Your argument is that the warforged is binary in its acceptability in a campaign. So what? There are campaigns were elves, dwarves and even humans are inappropriate. This does not make those races poorly designed. It just makes them inappropriate. You have stated that you think the LA+0 of the warforged is basically accurate: from a purely mechanical standpoint, the race is properly designed. Rule 0 is always there to say whether or not each and every game element is appropriate to a specific campaign.

The thing with this is that elves, dwarves, and humans are almost never *mechanically* inappropriate (though they may be thematically inappropriate). Warforged can be very thematically appropriate, and only mechanically inappropriate because of the binary design. Which is a shame -- robotic andriod humanoids have some real RP potential that is being explored, but their mechanics prevent these themes from being well explored in otherwise perfectly suitable environments...even in the world that they were designed for.

To draw a comparison, it would be like if a book offered a centaur race at LA 0 and then later said that a fun part of the world was running through dungeons designed by halflings. The race doesn't even fit other things the world has.

These are addressed in the DC of the disease or poison. To start making that poisons or diseases would in and of themselves have SR would begin to add a complexity to the game that you probably don't want. What happens if a creature has SR himself? Would the magical component of the poison/disease then be inert since it could not overcome the SR?

I would still say though that a creature immune to poisons would still be immune to magically resistant poisons. It doesn't solve your problem.

Poison or disease with SR is very simple: the caster of delay poison, neutralize poison, or remove disease must make a caster level check and beat the substance's SR. How is that complex?

A creature immune to poisons or diseases falls into the same category: they make a class level check (with whatever class granted them that ability) to see if their immunity holds.

So....it does solve my problem, actually.

 

[Fedifensor]

The thing with this is that elves, dwarves, and humans are almost never *mechanically* inappropriate (though they may be thematically inappropriate). Warforged can be very thematically appropriate, and only mechanically inappropriate because of the binary design. Which is a shame -- robotic andriod humanoids have some real RP potential that is being explored, but their mechanics prevent these themes from being well explored in otherwise perfectly suitable environments...even in the world that they were designed for.

While I agree with you on the mechanics...Warforged are NOT robots. A better comparison would be Pinnochio - created by humans, but obviously not one of them. Sentient golems, perhaps. It's really annoying to see players that treat Warforged as an excuse to do their robot impressions...bad robot impressions, no less.