Warforged ECL 0???? Yeah right!!!!

[Slife]

A creature immune to poisons or diseases falls into the same category: they make a class level check (with whatever class granted them that ability) to see if their immunity holds.

So....it does solve my problem, actually.

So make the warforged make a character level check. If diseases can become immune to magic, they can also adapt to infect warforged. If the warforged gains disease immunity from a class, make the class levels count twice.

And that should solve some of your problems with warforged.

 

[Vocenoctum]

While I agree with you on the mechanics...Warforged are NOT robots. A better comparison would be Pinnochio - created by humans, but obviously not one of them. Sentient golems, perhaps. It's really annoying to see players that treat Warforged as an excuse to do their robot impressions...bad robot impressions, no less.

Robot carries some baggage with it and is usually used by detractors, generally of the Eberron setting. Lots of them have never actually read the setting, merely judging it by the cover... literally.

Sentient Golem is closest, but I think they also share much in common with undead. They are created as servants with an intelligence to them that evolved from reworking the initial units. They are also interesting in that they are fresh, but fully formed. You can have a 2 year old with all the abilities of a veteran warrior. The closest robot type I think of off hand is the Iron Giant one.

Anyway, lots of folks don't think they fit D&D's flavor, but I think they're a logical step up from Shield Guardians and such things. They are designed for a specific setting, where you have mercantile interests that can engage in pure research, rather than most settings with individual wizards doing personal research. Their mechanics fit their style and the campaign.

If you remove them from their natural setting, they will of course require work, same as adding psionics or any other new element.

 

[I'm A Banana]

So make the warforged make a character level check. If diseases can become immune to magic, they can also adapt to infect warforged. If the warforged gains disease immunity from a class, make the class levels count twice.

And that should solve most of your problems with warforged.

First point is that this is an unpalatable solution to the problem. A monk who gains immunity to poison must make a monk level check, meaning multiclassing has a measurable effect on their ability to resist that poison (just as it does for the clerics in the world). This has the effect of guiding characters gently toward a higher price to pay for this immunity: they must limit their options if they want to retain it at any significant level. Paladins don't keep increasing their immunity in prestige classes, monks can't take levels of fighter and still be able to resist venom at the same level.

By making the warforged able to use all of their class levels (since they have no racial HD), it gives them a distinct and telling advantage, one that makes them too powerful still for a jungle campaign: they are able to gain one of the key advantages in the setting without paying any high price, and able to do it better than anyone else.

If, instead, they just had a +4 save bonus vs. poison because of their bio-mechanics, it makes them more effective while still forcing the character to choose betwen making his character gain another level in Monk (thereby increasing his resistance to the common poisons or diseases) or gaining a level in Sorcerer (which does not do it).

Second, this doesn't address the core issue: a monk or a paladin has to pay a large price, in the form of class levels that cannot be revoked and that are one of the most limited rescources in the game to even gain this measure of protection. A warforged would get identical (if not better) protection for free, from first level, without having to pay any real price themselves. As I said in rebuttal to Hussar's point, this amounts to something like a +4 level adjustment that they'd have by virtue of this bonus alone.

Third, it doesn't come close to fixing all of the problems with warforged. Even if such a rule were to be implemented, even if I could kink out a way to make sure that warforged weren't somehow gaining a singificant benefit for free several levels before anyone else could even try to do such a thing, even if there was a good solution for making warforged succumb to poison and disease, they'd still pose issues for the jungle. No alligators attack them. No mosquitos drink their blood. No giant pythons want to eat them. Their weight, as pointed out, becomes an issue when crossing the bridges or in quicksand. The burden their half-healing places on the party, mandating that other characters spend more rescources to keep them on their feet.

And fourth, again, it emphasizes how special and unique the warforged are, that they need special consideration in this category where no other race does. Like a creature without opposable thumbs or with the inability to speak a language, special rules are needed for these beings to bring them to be roughly in-line with normal characters. The difference is that warforged are claimed to be in-line with normal characters already, when they're clearly very divergent.

I'm not really looking to "solve my problems" with the Warforged. I'm looking for warforged not to give me any problems to begin with. You know, like how humans and gnomes and dwarves and changelings don't really give people any problems to begin with. How every other PC race avoids these problems.

 

[Kurotowa]

While I agree with you on the mechanics...Warforged are NOT robots. A better comparison would be Pinnochio - created by humans, but obviously not one of them. Sentient golems, perhaps. It's really annoying to see players that treat Warforged as an excuse to do their robot impressions...bad robot impressions, no less.

Actually, the best comparison I've seen is with Frankenstein's monster. A creature in the shape of a man brought to life by mad science and alchemical mysteries of the soul. Picture a world where Doctor Frankenstein was a member of a mercantile guild that mass produced promethean soldiers and sold them to all sides in the Napoleonic Wars. That's what the warforged are. The only difference is they're made of wood and steel instead of dead flesh stiched together.

 

[Stone Dog]

Not really an issue in our campaign - the player really wants to finish out the class. He's willing to sacrifice the extra point of BAB to get ability damage/ability drain immunity, and the free feat (Greater Powerful Charge) is a plus as well. He's playing a Warforged Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Warforged Juggernaut 4, and we're just about to hit 10th level. Oh, did I mention that the immunity to fatigue means the character rages with no penalty once the rage is over...?

Yeah, the rage thing is nice enough. I've run a bunch of barbarians in previous games though and getting fatigued for on average about half the fight never really seemed to crimp their style. I can certainly see it being a concern for some people, but I think that lacking the penalty will lose its sweetness approaching mid levels.

Even if you subscribe to that opinion, a warforged can still be brought back with Miracle or Wish. Very hard to do (especially in Eberron), but Jaela of the Silver Flame still owes us for saving her. Besides, if the warforged has Stone Construct or Iron Construct cast on it by the Artificer, it's very hard to take the character from positive HP to the -10 threshold in a single shot.

Not in my book. When a Miracle or Wish says that it duplicates an effect I mean that it DUPLICATES it. Fire elementals don't take damage from fireballs wished into existance and full constructs don't get raised or rezzed. ALL immunities still apply.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

The two warforged -- one now, as a player moved away -- in my Eberron group are by far the most powerful characters. It's not just the immunity, it's things like DR 2/adamantine, which at low levels is amazing and at high levels still doesn't suck. It's things like not needing to breathe, which alone takes away some of the most deadly hazards of the game. It's things like being healable by wizards.

There's absolutely no question in my mind that warforged are significantly better than dwarves (the most powerful core race), but there's also no question in my mind that they're not powerful enough to be LA +1. (If you wanna talk a truly ridiculous non-core LA +0 race, let's talk about whisper gnomes ... )

Warforged needed a couple more game-mechanical drawbacks. Off the top of my head, something like 5 gp/day upkeep cost, or their physical abilities begin to degrade. At low and even mid-levels that's significant, and by high levels the power discrepancy is pretty much gone.

In my game, warforged are treated like furniture and assumed by most people -- even following Thronehold -- to "belong" to the humans they're with. Only the most open-minded people will even bother to negotiate with a warforged, for instance.

It works pretty well, but this is a roleplaying disadvantage to balance game-mechanical advantages, and if we learned anything from 2E, it's that that's not good game design.

 

[Remathilis]

First point is that this is an unpalatable solution to the problem. A monk who gains immunity to poison must make a monk level check, meaning multiclassing has a measurable effect on their ability to resist that poison (just as it does for the clerics in the world). This has the effect of guiding characters gently toward a higher price to pay for this immunity: they must limit their options if they want to retain it at any significant level. Paladins don't keep increasing their immunity in prestige classes, monks can't take levels of fighter and still be able to resist venom at the same level.

However, that's an optional d20 setting that has additional rules that are not found in the SRD. What your saying is "Warforged don't work in a setting where I specifically change the rules to emphasize the things they are typically immune to, so teh warforged are broken"

What you're describing reminds me of the "Fear Conundrum" that Ravenloft has about paladins. Since paladins are immune to fear, they remove the benefit and instead grant a +4 to fear checks. It fixes the mechanics to suit the setting.

A kender (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) who is naturally immune to all fear (magical and mundane), would (by you're standard) be an LA+1 in Ravenloft since they get a tremendous benefit that the campaign book doesn't take into account. (and before you say it, kender are in Sithicus, a domain on the core).

However, in their appropriate settings (Eberron and Dragonlance, respectively) they are fine. Outside that setting, they are not.

That doesn't make the races bad, it just makes them incompatible with certain settings. Nothing wrong with that. The same can be said for aventi (immune to drowning), raptorans (immune to falling, later immune to most ground hazards), elan (immune to humanoid-affecting spells) etc.

 

[wildstarsreach]

The two warforged -- one now, as a player moved away -- in my Eberron group are by far the most powerful characters. It's not just the immunity, it's things like DR 2/adamantine, which at low levels is amazing and at high levels still doesn't suck. It's things like not needing to breathe, which alone takes away some of the most deadly hazards of the game. It's things like being healable by wizards.

There's absolutely no question in my mind that warforged are significantly better than dwarves (the most powerful core race), but there's also no question in my mind that they're not powerful enough to be LA +1. (If you wanna talk a truly ridiculous non-core LA +0 race, let's talk about whisper gnomes ... )

Warforged needed a couple more game-mechanical drawbacks. Off the top of my head, something like 5 gp/day upkeep cost, or their physical abilities begin to degrade. At low and even mid-levels that's significant, and by high levels the power discrepancy is pretty much gone.

In my game, warforged are treated like furniture and assumed by most people -- even following Thronehold -- to "belong" to the humans they're with. Only the most open-minded people will even bother to negotiate with a warforged, for instance.

It works pretty well, but this is a roleplaying disadvantage to balance game-mechanical advantages, and if we learned anything from 2E, it's that that's not good game design.

In our Eberron Age of wyms campaign, we had a warforged Cleric/Paladin/Figher/Exorcist of the Silver Flame. He had a cohort Artificer. It was and effective character. He was in the top 3. He was slightly less than the other two though he was designed to take damage. The shifter barbarian/fighter/were touched master/war shaper and Kalashtar Telepath Psion/wizard/cerebremancer.

Warforged are powerful but they aren't always so bad. If one of the -2 stats were removed then making them an LA+1 would be correct.

In Eberron they may have been treated as chattle but the idea would be like post civil war in that only the most obstinate didn't negotiate with them. But their minus to charisma hurts them in RP situations.

 

[I'm A Banana]

However, that's an optional d20 setting that has additional rules that are not found in the SRD. What your saying is "Warforged don't work in a setting where I specifically change the rules to emphasize the things they are typically immune to, so teh warforged are broken"

Hardly. I'm actually saying that in any campaign where the emphasis is on anything the warforged are immune to, the warforged don't work. There have been admissions of such throughout this thread ("if you're playing Midnight....", etc.). No one is saying they DO work in such environments. I'm agreeing with that point, and saying it's a darn shame, because they really COULD, if their mechanics weren't so incredibly wonky.

The fact that they are at LA +0 in the rules, suggests that they should work much like dwarves or elves or changelings. Even though they clearly DON'T work much like those things at all, really.

By the rules, jungle exploration kind of looses its challenge around 5th level, but it's still a possible low-level kind of adventure for about 5 months of playing time (more with slower XP rate). But a warforged ruins that. By the rules, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft fits fine in Eberron...unless you have warforged in your party, in which case you're going to have to change a large number of encounters to include something challenging to them, too. Two examples of things that are ruinied 100% and only on the basis of warforged having this idiot-savant design philosophy. They ain't the only ones.

However, in their appropriate settings (Eberron and Dragonlance, respectively) they are fine. Outside that setting, they are not.

Warforged can't enjoy a classic pulp adventure like raiding a jungle temple without throwing a wrench into the plans. Eberron is a place where everything should, theoretically have a home, ESPECIALLY pulpy jungle swords-and-temples kinds of action.

But with the warforged mechanics as they are, they don't. It's kind of ironic, the "house for everything" world has to exclude one of the things that came with it in order to enjoy one of the things its supposed to be good at allowing you to enjoy.

I'm feeling like I'm beating my head against a wall here, because I seem to be repeating myeslf a lot, but every time I re-iterate my point to one poster, two more pop up re-wording the questions I already addressed.

That doesn't make the races bad, it just makes them incompatible with certain settings. Nothing wrong with that. The same can be said for aventi (immune to drowning), raptorans (immune to falling, later immune to most ground hazards), elan (immune to humanoid-affecting spells) etc.

What you're missing here is that there's a great gulf of challenge between "doesn't usually take falling damage" and "immune to 6 things and the kitchen sink. Also, I have to have a special class and special spells just for me or I don't work very well." It's the typical character points scenario of the omnipotent psychic who is a quadrapelegic -- powerful abilities balanced by horribly crippling side-effects. Binary abilities are really only acceptable when they're not as broad and sweeping as the warforged are (or in a superhero game, where it fits the genre like a glove). Why don't we make dwarves and gnomes immune to attacks from giants and halflings naturally invisible and give half-elves charm person instead of a diplomacy bonus, too? And even if we did that, the core races *still* wouldn't have the broad swath of annoying idiot-savant abilities that the warforged have.

Warforged are powerful but they aren't always so bad. If one of the -2 stats were removed then making them an LA+1 would be correct.

Like I said, it's not the power level that bugs me, it's the binary, idiot-savant method of balancing it. The whole Superman complex: I am completely invincible unless I see my secret weakness. For the warforged, it's "I'm immune to a laundry list of dangers, but I can't be healed very effectively by clerics. It's a good thing I've got artificers and arcane healers, ain't it!"

It'd be like invisible halflings who were burned by sunlight: design that excludes a lot more potential adventure than it ever needed to, or really should.

 

[shilsen]

Hardly. I'm actually saying that in any campaign where the emphasis is on anything the warforged are immune to, the warforged don't work. There have been admissions of such throughout this thread ("if you're playing Midnight....", etc.). No one is saying they DO work in such environments. I'm agreeing with that point, and saying it's a darn shame, because they really COULD, if their mechanics weren't so incredibly wonky.

*raises hand*

Um, I'm pretty sure that I could make the warforged, with no mechanical changes, work fine in any setting, even if the emphasis is on something they're immune to.

I'm also pretty sure that your version and my version of working fine differ, but you can't say "No one is saying they DO work in such environments." I am.

I might agree that an entire group made of warforged and only warforged could be a problem in some settings, but as long as that's not the case, warforged as members of a group including other races works fine in pretty much any setting I can think of. To use an analogy dealing with classes and not races, a group made purely of rogues, or one made purely of paladins and clerics, would not work well in a heavy undead campaign. But rogues in a mixed group or paladins & clerics in a mixed group would be dandy. To use a race example, a group consisting purely of elves wouldn't work very well in a campaign heavily predicated on fighting the quori in Eberron, a big part of whose mystique/power/fear lies in their ability to invade dreams, which the non-sleeping elves are immune to. But elves would work fine in such a campaign as part of a group involving other races. Warforged, IME, are in a similar situation, though the degree may be greater.