Warforged ECL 0???? Yeah right!!!!

Stone Dog said:
As much as I think that warforged characters are just fine as is, a couple flaws are in your reasoning here. Warforged have no problem swimming. Not a bit. It would say so in the rules if they did and aside from the armor check penalty of adamantine body and such feats they don't even suffer on the roll. Warforged also only rust from supernatural causes such as Spells and rust monsters. Natural oxidation just isn't a problem.

They weigh more than twice as much as any of the standard races, they have trouble swimming just based on the extra weight they carry around with themselves. I also don't see an immunity to normal rust, it just doesn't seem to be a problem in normal areas. On the other hand, for most PCs, disease isn't a constant worry wither - but being in the jungle changes these sorts of things.
 

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From my personal experience in 3 campaigns with warforged I've noticed that the immunities didn't really seem all that out of line with the rest of the group. It made them stand out certainly, but they never seemed to overshadow anyone else.

I can also definitely second the opinion of them getting savaged in combat though. In the low and mid level group, the artificer just kept repairing the warforged, and was pretty annoyed she couldn't do to much else. In the higher level group, without an artificer, it came down to either the wizard repairing the warforged, or dealing out damage. And without an artificer, you don't have access to the construct equivalent of heal.

Of course, I've never played this Age of Worms campaign, so I can't offer practical experience there. We did encounter our fair share of undead though. And poison wasn't really a threat to those not immune to it (except the occasional thing with con damaging poison), so immunity didn't really bother our dm.
 

Knight Otu said:
Depends on what Sidgel thinks he is missing. Warforged are immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, being sickened, and energy drain. They are affected by crits, nonlethal damage, stunning, ability damage and drain, and death effects and necromantic effects.
Assuming it was in reference to the energy drain immunity thing, they are. Ability drain is different. But it seems to be more of a general remark saying that they are still affected by a lot of stuff that affect other normal creatures.

The terminology of this post sometimes misleads me. The impression I got from reading this post was that WF are immune to stat and level damage. I knew this was wrong. Checked my facts. And found out that WF can be hurt by stat damage. If no one was arguing this point, I misread the post and I apologize.
 

But, again, KM, those threats you talk about in the jungle campaign - disease, poison namely - only really bother a low level party anyway. After 5th level, all of those issues vanish. Delay poison, create food and water, Lesser Restoration, Cure Disease, poof all jungle problems gone.

Now we get into kind of weird territoy, because you're generally right (with the exception of poison -- you pretty much always take at least an initial hit from poison, even when you've got delay and neutralize), in a broad sense. This shows that the game wasn't really designed for a tropical setting, and while this is fine in a standard medieval melieu, in the tropics you're going to want to make such things a stronger threat for even a high-level party.

So you introduce things like poisons and diseases with SR (like Nyambe, set in Africa, did).

Now, for most PC's, this helps solve the problem -- the troubles are still a threat, even at high levels, because now magic doesn't just poof it away (though it does help you fight it).

Some of your specifics are off, because food and water I didn't really point out as being a problem (they rarely are, especially in a jungle teeming with life), and lesser restoration helps with fatigue, but the weather and walking around aren't something high-level adventurers worry about, anyway.

But even in a jungle campaign without house rules for these things, there's a one key difference between the warforged being immune and the rest of the party gaining immunity through spells: the people casting spells have earned their immunity, through gaining levels and ascribing one of the most precious rescources (PC levels) to things that would gain them immunity (at the cost of some of their rescources).

What does it "cost" the warforged for his immunities? From the racial abilities, it looks like it costs him full healing and ability penalties like a half-orc. The healing is the most significant, but it's a pain in the butt for the entire party, and, again, mandates a special consideration with a special solution (the repair spells). So the cost of playing the warforged is actually to make OTHER characters use up their rescources.

So, if after 5th level, these aren't a problem, shouldn't the warforged have an ECL of +4? Because the other party member have sunk 5 levels worth of XP into gaining these immunities, why does the warforged get them cheaper? I mean, after all, an ogre isn't given his ECL based on what he'd be like as a wizard, he's given it based on what he'd be like as a barbarian, at his peak effectiveness. At their peak of effectiveness, warforged seem to AT LEAST warrant an ECL of +4, by WotC's own rules, and by your evidence here. That's part of what ECL does, after all -- keeps the valuable high-level (or mid-level) powers at a level where they belong. What are they doing running around with 1st-level parties? ;) 5 levels is a lot of adventuring time, after all...nearly half a year sunk into your characters before they get to that point.

Now, again, it should be noted that I'd prefer a solution that made them balanced for first-level parties, such as by them gaining full healing, removing the immunities, and gaining hefty (+4-ish) bounses against these effects instead. They would still be (arguably) one of the strongest PC races (compared to a dwarf), but they'd at least be welcome in a first-level jungle...where, the claim is, they're welcome now (though they're not really going to be appreciating why it's special).

Storm Raven said:
I would look at this as an opportunity as a DM though. Even though the warforged is immune to a lot of the challeneges that "fleshy" characters might face in the jungle, he is more susceptible to other jungle specific threats that his companions are able to much more easily overcome. The constant humidity is likley to play havoc on his metal body. His inability to swim is magnified in an environment with swampy rivers and quicksand. His increased weight makes relying on rickety bridges and hanging vines for support in difficult terrain a hazardous affair. Consequently, though the warforged may be able to come to the rescue of his human companions for several jungle hazards, they will have to come to his aid for others, meaning that the party needs to work together to get through the jungle successfully.

Yes, you can always create special circumstances in which the warforged are uniquely challenged, but this just points out their exceptional status all the more. Like in a grim-n-gritty campaign with Farty McCrablegs, you have to always treat Farty in an exceptional manner because he plays pranks on the people who sell water and he throws pies instead of preserving them for his next meal, relishing the sweet taste.

In other words, the need to cater to them sperately can have an effect on the mood of the entire campaign, making them largely inappropriate, not because they have special extreme strengths, but because they have special extreme weaknesses.
 

Storm Raven said:
They weigh more than twice as much as any of the standard races, they have trouble swimming just based on the extra weight they carry around with themselves. I also don't see an immunity to normal rust, it just doesn't seem to be a problem in normal areas. On the other hand, for most PCs, disease isn't a constant worry wither - but being in the jungle changes these sorts of things.

That you give them swim penalties is a house ruling. It has been clarified multiple times by Keith Baker and WotC (cust service at least...) that warforged characters have no problem with swimming at all unless an armor body feat, STR penalty or encumbrance issue gives them a problem. Granted, I have a hard time imagining that they float if disabled or bound, but if they are free to make swim checks they can move about just as easily as any other character. So no need to weigh a warforged down if you want him to sink, just make sure it can't move.

Warforged also don't rust under normal conditions. Again, Baker and WotC CS. I agree though that Xen'Drik isn't exactly a normal condition after the Shattering and everybody should be careful even with certain immunities. Maybe not so much the rainforests of Breland or Q'Barra, but Xen'drik certainly.
 

Actually, warforged with body feats swim better than equivalently armored characters. The penalty to skills they take from the feat is not an armor check penalty and thus isn't doubled for the purposes of penalizing swim checks.
 

Stone Dog said:
That you give them swim penalties is a house ruling. It has been clarified multiple times by Keith Baker and WotC (cust service at least...) that warforged characters have no problem with swimming at all unless an armor body feat, STR penalty or encumbrance issue gives them a problem. Granted, I have a hard time imagining that they float if disabled or bound, but if they are free to make swim checks they can move about just as easily as any other character. So no need to weigh a warforged down if you want him to sink, just make sure it can't move.

Warforged also don't rust under normal conditions. Again, Baker and WotC CS. I agree though that Xen'Drik isn't exactly a normal condition after the Shattering and everybody should be careful even with certain immunities. Maybe not so much the rainforests of Breland or Q'Barra, but Xen'drik certainly.


Right, Warforged are not metal automatons, they are wood, and various other materials. As such they are mostly as bouyant as a human, for rules sake. As magical creations I have no problem assuming they were made to resist normal rust, and that magical rusting overcomes that.
 

Hussar said:
But, again, KM, those threats you talk about in the jungle campaign - disease, poison namely - only really bother a low level party anyway. After 5th level, all of those issues vanish. Delay poison, create food and water, Lesser Restoration, Cure Disease, poof all jungle problems gone.

I know that in my World's Largest Dungeon game, issues of disease, food, etc, all vanished at the same time. In the first four levels, the party was constantly diseased, ability damaged, etc. After 5th, between either a cleric or a paladin, all those issues vanish. You're not exactly losing a lot anyway.

Besides, it's never, or at least rarely, an issue for the entire party when poison or disease rears its head. It's an issue because 1 or 2 PC's are diseased and/or poisoned. That it's never the warforged is no different really than it's never the paladin. Somehow I don't think you'd make the arguement that a paladin would not fit into the Americas campaign. Pretty much a perfect fit if you ask me. Yet, a paladin of 3rd level ignores all diseases. Poison? With a good fort save and divine grace? Not likely.

I'm really of the opinion here that you are making a mountain of a molehill. Most of the things a WF is immune to - poison and disease especially - are minor inconveniences anyway. The fact that he lacks healing is a far bigger penalty than what he gains.

Let me put it this way. Is a PC more likely to be damaged than poisoned or diseased? How much more? Is healing more important, more often, than Delay Poison and a Heal check?

Just to state here. my Paladin is fighter 1, paladin 4, pious templar 3 and has saves of 17/10/13 or something similar at level 8, is immune to disease, has mettle and a 17 fort save, and the ability to delay poison. I am immune to poison, and most will saves too. I wade into ghosts and ghouls, I ignore poison attackers, and I do it willfully. I purposefully stride into the middle of the ghosts and challenge them to harm me. I am immune to fear and disease. The DM doesnt call me overpowered, because the wizard does brutal damage, and all I do is clog up the battlefield, and make saves/take aoo's on stuff that tries to get past me to the wizard thats tearing them up.

Maybe your players are very concerned about these poisons, I dunno. I'm not petrified of having a scorpion in my boot, even with a non warforge. Druids and Monks are immune to poison. Poison DC's are pitifully low, you'd need to roll a 1 to fail, and if I thought the entire campaign was based on it, I'd splurge on the PHB II feat that lets you not fail saves on a 1.

I think the argument is weak. Warforged arent too powerful, they are different. If you want your players to be worried about where they get their next meal, ala Midnight, Warforged arent for your campaign, just say no. No need to go on a tirade about all Warforged in all campaigns.

My homebrew has no Halflings, because they dont exist. Mostly because I HATE halflings, and hobbits, with a passion, but I dont rail against the halfling, to all who will listen, because my hatred for them is irrational.
 

Vocenoctum said:
Right, Warforged are not metal automatons, they are wood, and various other materials. As such they are mostly as bouyant as a human, for rules sake. As magical creations I have no problem assuming they were made to resist normal rust, and that magical rusting overcomes that.

Rust monsters do increased damage that incapacitates the warforged.
 

wildstarsreach said:
Rust monsters do increased damage that incapacitates the warforged.
That would be the magical rusting that he is talking about overcoming a resistance to normal rust. Rust monsters can also "rust" metals that have no iron or other corrodable materials so it clearly isn't "normal" by any stretch.
 

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