Warhammer 3e Demo Experiences -OR- How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bits

[Wrathamon]

Will there be a part 2 then?

would you want one?

5. I think the stat blocks are counterintuitive, even for a veteran WFRPer for me. Yes, I could figure them out, but they were not handy or particularly short.

I totally agree. Part of the organization of the rules that I didnt like at all.

 

[Filcher]

Got my box last night. Super stoked to to open it up then ... darn.

I read the "basic" rulebook and am still not really clear on how to run a basic combat. I'm sure it will just take the usual "test combat" to learn, but my enthusiasm is diminished. I want to have some friends over and crack some gritty fantasy heads, not spend the night trying to explain stances and conversion dice. (Let alone handing the specialized dice off between new players, or advancement ... ye gods.)

If 4e lightened the DM's workload, this seems the reverse. I think it could be easy to play a PC, but GMing seems weighty.

I'm hoping after some sessions I'm wrong. But right now just looking at all the bits makes me want to say, "meh," and play some 4e.

 

[Wrathamon]

I read the "basic" rulebook and am still not really clear on how to run a basic combat.

Not sure if these will help...

Fantasy Flight Games [News] - Combat Training 101

Fantasy Flight Games [News] - Combat Training 102

Fantasy Flight Games [News] - Combat Training 103: Putting it all together

If 4e lightened the DM's workload, this seems the reverse. I think it could be easy to play a PC, but GMing seems weighty.

You're correct. There is more weight on what the GM needs to do I think, opposed to the players being able to self rule situations.

 

[firesnakearies]

would you want one?

I would!

 

[Filcher]

Not sure if these will help...

Fantasy Flight Games [News] - Combat Training 101

Fantasy Flight Games [News] - Combat Training 102

Fantasy Flight Games [News] - Combat Training 103: Putting it all together



You're correct. There is more weight on what the GM needs to do I think, opposed to the players being able to self rule situations.

Awesome. Thank you for the links.

And as for "workload," I'm hoping a lot of it is in my head. I feel like I could run any edition of D&D with my eyes closed. Hopefully just being new to 3e Warhammer is just that ... being new.

But golly, it underlined for me how 4E spoils the DM.

 

[Filcher]

That last link was key. Thank you. It helped to see combat in action.

 

[Wrathamon]

review part II

Okay i guess I will continue...

Lets start at the beginning this time...



Character Creation

You pick from one of four races... basically a human, dwarf and two types of elves (halflings got the boot!)

You get a bunch of creation points to spend on all sorts of things... characteristics, skills, abilities and wealth.

• Boon - POINT BASED!
  
  I much prefer point based systems over random dice rolling. Very customizable. The specializations for skills took some players some getting use to. One just used the examples given... others wanted to make up their own. Then players would argue (hey look that party tension meter just went up!)​
• Bane - Random Career Choices
  
  Okay they say in the rules you dont have to but from what I remember from 1st edition it was random back then also... even Race selection was!
  We rolled with it, but in the future if we continue playing I will let them pick.
  ​

Action Cards & Stances

Why a card? Why a Stance meter? It makes it much easier to organize and keep track of. That's it. You could in theory just say/write it on a piece of paper.

• Boon - Stance Meter
  
  I actually like this a lot. As a GM i can easily see who is being cautious and who is being reckless. The players feel like they are making a choice (risk/reward) during combat. It just adds another layer. Again, do you need the bits? Absolutely not. Does it make it more elegant? Absolutely.​
• Boon - Action Cards
  
  In 4e Power cards were a "good" idea but because my character kept leveling I had to always print out the latest card. It became tiresome. Here it works better imo. This is what the action does and has all the information on the different symbols and how they enhance the action when rolled. Also, you flip it over to get different effects when you are in a different stance! No one got confused.​
• Bane - Sharing cards
  
  that's a problem with bits. If players have the same ability and there aren't enough cards then the elegance and polish of the game gets tossed out the window.​
  
  You can check out some examples here
  Fantasy Flight Games [News] - Getting Things Done

The Party Sheet and Tension Meter

• Boon - Party Sheet
  
  I love this! Again you could just say the group belongs to this organization (D&D did this) and you all get X benefits. The nice thing about the sheet is - its a HUGE reminder and its customizable. You get to add a tactic card and a reputation card (basically abilities that the entire group can use if they want to. And, players can be reminded that they have it and when its available to be used. Also you keep track of fortune points that are handed out and Party Tension!​
• Boon - Party Tension
  
  Very interesting idea... as a GM I like it. It might be a bit heavy handed (depends on the GM) but players get it. My players at first where like wtf but couple ticks on the meter and they started working together better. After so many ticks you get a negative side-effect. Like suffering fatigue or stress​

Resource Tracking

• Bane - Lots of systems to keep track of
  
  There is a lot of things to keep track off. If it wasnt for the bits... this would become a hated part of the game. Other games in the past have had more than just HPs to adjust. Champions had Endurance, Stun, Body and how many points you currently have allocated to your powers in your multipower framework... Too much resource management can take the fun out of a rpg. Is balancing your checkbook fun? (do people even do this by hand anymore?) The game has Wounds, Critical hits, Insanity, Stress, Fatigue, things with recharge tokens... I'm sure I missed something. It can be a bit overwhelming... but​
• Boon - Bits
  
  The bits save it. Seriously, without all that stuff the game would probably be a complex mess. Other games have tried it in the past and some people like it, but a lot find it too much to keep track of and they cant focus on the game/story/action. This is where the player aids really come in handy.
  
  I would've prefer it to have been a pool that you pull from for fatigue/stress so I can panic and go crap I only have 1 left! Instead you need to compare your tokens to your characteristics to make sure you didnt go over.​

Critical Hits and Wound Cards

Again... you dont need cards. You could roll on a big chart.
I find the cards to be better cause the rules are right there and its nice to track.​

This too me is a big change from previous editions... the crits arent as deadly. I much prefer it. I like giving and taking crits. It provides impact but you're not wrecked as a player and you can weave a better story as a GM imo. In the past, most of my players havent liked Warhammer, because you died "randomly."​

Buying Equiptment

There really wasnt a huge list of gear. They simplified a lot. A Great Sword, Great Axe, Giant Hammer... are all the same weapon with different visual descriptions but the same stats. This makes it easy to understand and balance but you lose a bit of customization or granularity of other systems. Not to say you couldnt add that easily enough.​

Magic Items

This is the same from previous editions really... Magic items are RARE. Warhammer has never really had a ton of magic items. Whcih was always something D&D players had a problem with... Magic Loot is a D&D thing, I guess. They didnt really change that... not to say they wont come out with magic item packs. They do give you one in the sample adventure.​

Recharge tokens

Another tracking method that you really dont need bits for but makes it easier. It the game certain actions cant be done consecutively. Other games have had things you needed to keep track of (e.g. how many rounds it is activem, Durations, etc.) This made choices more interesting for the player. What Defense action did they want to use for an attack because they might want to save it for the next one... etc. Also, the DM can put a Delay on certain actions when the player rolls a Delay symbol... which is something that I liked but I can see how players might feel like it sucks...​

Random

the game is way more random than 4e. It is much harder to calculate the odds that a certain action will work, how much damage you will do, etc. This is hard for certain players to like... they feel the game isnt as controllable. Others love it! I guess its the same for boardgames... games with lots of dice bug certain types of players. Party tension!!​

 

[Wrathamon]

That last link was key. Thank you. It helped to see combat in action.

No problem!

The more workload is when to add fortune and misfortune dice... or how many extra challenge dice to add. It can be completely up to the GM... where in 4e it was easy for a player to go .. I have a -2 to hit here cause he has concealment, or I cant shift here cause of the terrain. or I have cover so my dwefense is +2. it really isnt that hard but "certain" players may feel you're winging it at times.


I am still wrapping my head around the things monsters can do! The extra dice you can add and how henchmen work. Also, how to balance encounters... this perhaps is the hardest thing at the moment.

 

[firesnakearies]

Okay i guess I will continue...

Cool, thanks. Nice review.


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[Filcher]

Do you have a sense of the scalability yet of the challenge dice? For instance, in a where it was straight math, I'd know what a -5 meant (give or take) and be able to judge its impact on the fly. I don't have that sense yet with the numberless dice. How significant is 1 challenge die compared to 3?