Warhammer 3E vs. D&D 4E vs. Descent (Road to Legend)

[Stormonu]

I like to buy lots of varied games and try them out. I've had FFG's Descent for a year or two, and just managed to arrange a bi-weekly game with some friends to actually play through it (and hopefully all the expansions - I've got them all, including Sea of Blood). I'm curious to see how Road to Legend plays out - if it still feels like a boardgame or if it has enough elements to feel somewhat like a story-lite RPG.

I've been reading up on the Warhammer 3E game, and have it on order - will be getting in the next week or so. I'm curious to see how it plays out. I have the Warhammer 2E stuff and thought it very engaging reading, though I was never able to get a group together to play it. Back in the day, my friends and I used to play (Advanced) Heroquest, so this seems like a "modern" version of that. I'm hoping I can interest my Descent players to try it out after we finish up Descent - or possibly try a straight-up comparison.

I've also played 4E, but I can't say I'm overly fond of it (funny, considering how much I like Descent, yet dislike the heavy emphasis on combat and battlemats in 4E). However, I have to admit that the tactical side of the game, with battlemats and minis, are fun enough to do in short bursts for me. I do plan to get the Dark Sun Campaign Book down the road (and possibly PHB3 for psionics), but I'm not sure I'll actually play it.

So, I wanted to ask those who have had experience with at least two of these different games - of the three different games listed above, which have you played and how would compare your experiences? Is there one you prefer over the other? Any particular reason why? Do you see elements in one game you'd like to see in the others?

 

[Doctor Jest]

So, I wanted to ask those who have had experience with at least two of these different games - of the three different games listed above, which have you played and how would compare your experiences? Is there one you prefer over the other? Any particular reason why? Do you see elements in one game you'd like to see in the others?

I own and play all three.

Let me say, if you're hoping Warhammer 3e will be like Heroquest or Descent, you're going to be disappointed. D&D 4e is by far much closer to a board game than Warhammer 3e is.

If you're familiar with Warhammer 2e, you'll find 3e pretty accessible. The main differences are that your Talents are now on cards in an Action Deck rather than being in a book and requiring you to copy them to your sheet, and some new resources have been added (Stress and Fatigue) which can be tracked with chits. Of course, the dice system and stance system are very new as well.

Dice in Warhammer 3e are designed for storytelling rather than pass/fail resolution. It uses the same mechanics in combat and non-combat situations, as well.

In Combat, compared to D&D or Descent, it's very very abstract, even moreso than Warhammer 2e (which was still grid-able). Everyone does have a stand up (or you can use minis if you prefer) but they're only used for relative positioning (i.e. how far away is this guy? Can I shoot him? Can I hit him?) and is not tactical at all.

In order of Boardgaminess (is that a word?) I'd rank:

1.) Descent
2.) D&D 4e
3.) Warhammer 3e (distant 3rd).

In fact, aside from the dice mechanic, everything else in Warhammer is trackable in a traditional fashion just using pencil and paper. The bits and bobs just make that easier and a bit more accessible for new players.

So, there really is no comparison between Warhammer 3e and Descent. You won't be setting up floor tiles or battle maps, you won't be accounting for each foe with a separate mini, you won't be counting squares for range or putting down burst templates.

If you want to try to get your D&D/Descent playing friends to move towards a more traditional PnP RP experience, then maybe Warhammer can be a gateway drug. If you're thinking you'll be running dungeon crawls on a battlemap with Warhammer, you'll be disappointed.

 

[Stormonu]

^ Thanks for the reply!

Opening the Warhammer 3E box was quite a shock - but in a good way. With the game being offered by Fantasy Flight and all the components it included, I wasn't expecting it to be such an abstract system. I'm really interested in giving it a try; the "group" mechanics is one of those V8 moments - why didn't D&D think of this ages ago? Well, I guess they touched on something like it in PHB2(?) for 3E, but it didn't catch.

At this point, I still have to sit down and read through ALL of the books and convince my crew to give it a whirl, but I don't think I'll have to do much convincing - what I've glanced over looks pretty good.

 

[Gort]

I've also played 4E, but I can't say I'm overly fond of it (funny, considering how much I like Descent, yet dislike the heavy emphasis on combat and battlemats in 4E). However, I have to admit that the tactical side of the game, with battlemats and minis, are fun enough to do in short bursts for me. I do plan to get the Dark Sun Campaign Book down the road (and possibly PHB3 for psionics), but I'm not sure I'll actually play it.

I hate to go all "you're playing it wrong" on you, but if you only like combats in short bursts, why not have a roleplaying-heavy 4e game where you do most stuff in-character without using any real rules, then have the occasional combat when it feels meaningful and appropriate?

Sometimes I think the published adventure books really do 4e a disservice - they're all long, boring dungeon crawls where you'll have forgotten why you're in a dungeon by the time you actually reach the big boss.


Speaking of Descent and 4e (haven't played Warhammer 3e yet, though I would like to) I think they're both excellent games. I tend to be the Overlord/GM, and it gives me a nice change of pace when I can go from 4e's philosophy of "make a stage for your players to be awesome and do awesome stuff and have fun" to the Descent Overlord's philosophy of "Kill them! Turn them into monkeys! Make the treasure chest into a mimic which bites them and runs away! Death to my players!".

The only real downer for Descent is it takes me about 45 minutes to set the damn thing up. Them dungeon tiles are fiddly.

 

[Doctor Jest]

I hate to go all "you're playing it wrong" on you, but if you only like combats in short bursts, why not have a roleplaying-heavy 4e game where you do most stuff in-character without using any real rules, then have the occasional combat when it feels meaningful and appropriate?

If you want to pound a nail into some wood, why use a screwdriver when a hammer does a better job?

D&D is built for heavy combats. If you want to do abstract or narrative combats, then there are other systems that do that better.

Use the right tool for the job instead of pounding in the nail with the handle of the screwdriver. I've done it before and yeah, it'll work, but it'll probably be painful, and it won't do as good a job.

If you want a game that doesn't involved heavy drawn-out highly tactical combats, then you're better off with a different game than D&D.

 

[Aus_Snow]

If you want to pound a nail into some wood, why use a screwdriver when a hammer does a better job?

Huh. My reading of it was more like, if you don't want administer a pounding quite as frequently, then don't. Or, could be, receive one.

If you want a game that doesn't involved heavy drawn-out highly tactical combats, then you're better off with a different game than D&D.

Or, indeed, a different D&D.


And am I the only one who finds the very title and premise of the thread entirely surreal? No, never mind. Evidently, yes.

 

[Doctor Jest]

Huh. My reading of it was more like, if you don't want administer a pounding quite as frequently, then don't. Or, could be, receive one.

When your only tool is a hammer, all your problems start to look like nails.

The answer to "I don't like the heavy combats that 90% of D&D 4e is tailored around" isn't "well, just ignore the system and do other things that the game isn't focused on and doesn't do particularly well, but is easier to ignore".

It's "find a system that does what you like better".

Even if you do like D&D 4e, you won't necessarily want to use it for every kind of game, but more likely the games for which it's suited.

Or, indeed, a different D&D.

True, true.