Warhammer d20

[Eccles]

Oh darn. I just wrote a long message with some suggestions on how to get it all to work properly.

Then tried to attach a zip file, and lost the lot.

Basically it came down to:

1. Reducing hitpoints is a good idea because it'll make the PCs feel fragile and scared.

2. To get the 'feel' of the world you don't need to make too many changes from the 3rd Ed chassis. Lose the Underdark, and introduce Chaos properly. The army books will help you here, but they're not really 'chaotic' enough for my liking. Again I heartily recommend The Lost & the Damned to you for the mutation tables and stuff.

3. Skaven. How could I forget the skaven? This is where it all fell over last time.

I tell you what. I can't attach the file I found on the net, which is a pretty good D20 approximation of Skaven. I'll stick it on my webpage for you and link it in here. I can't promise you it'll open for you, since my copy of Acrobat has been playing silly beggars recently, but here we go.

Right it should be at:-

http://www.geocities.com/nik_hoyle/skaven.zip

zipped for your convenience, etc.

If it doesn't work... Err... I'm unlikely to be able to help, I'm afraid. It was written by Alfred Holmes, but Google can't find any trace of the man.

 

[kengar]

So you reduce Hit Points, then reduce damage to fit those reduced Hit Points, and since you're using armor as DR, you have to reduce it too? Why are you reducing everything?

I suggested reducing hit points, etc. to keep the "Lone Goblin" -as someone called it earlier- as a viable threat.

Example: a 2nd level rogue has 2d6 hp w/ no CON bonus. Assume full hp for first and an average roll of 3 for 2nd. That's 9hp total. AC works as per d20 (decreasing chance of hitting v. damage absorption).

A goblin with a dagger attacks the rogue and hits. Heck, he rolls a nat 20 and makes his 2nd roll for a critical for 2d4 damage (no STR bonus since it is just a goblin). Average rolls means 5 pts of damage. This is a critical hit, folks; meaning that the dagger really struck home. The rogue still has almost half his hit points and is not even negatively affected by the blow. Even at maximum damage the rogue is still up & fighting, though admittedly, at one HP, he maybe should be thinking of running away. One hit from his shortsword or rapier will very probably take the goblin out. This is as it should be in a "grim" campaign, one good blow usually finishes the fight. But the measly, average HP 2nd level rogue is already getting too tough to be killed by a dagger plunged to the hilt into his back??

In WHFRP, it's true that the mechanics are different, as is the definition of a critical hit. However, it is very -IMHO- unWarhammerish to have someone get stabbed as hard as they can be stabbed with a dagger and not be seriously staggered or DEAD.

I know that the same goblin with a larger weapon might have downed the rogue, but that is part of my point. A critical hit with a dagger should be enough to do the job on almost anyone, period.

D&D is a "Heroic" fantasy game, and that's fine. This means the characters are supposed to be somewhat "Larger than Life." You can talk all you want about "d20 v. D&D" but the fact is the rules were designed with D&D in mind and the other systems are adaptations from that model. Some do a better job than others.

Let's look at a similiar situation in WHFRP.
Example: An average equivalent to our 2nd level rogue. Human adventuerer Thief. STR=3 Wounds = 3 Toughness = 2, Leather Armor = 1/0 (meaning over 3 hits of damage gets no DR).

A similiar foe with a club does 1d6+3(STR); call it 7 points (average roll). Subtract 2 pts for target's Toughness = 5pts. That takes the thief to -2; critical hit! Assume the right arm was struck, about half the dozen or so possible results involve losing the use of the arm at LEAST for the duration of the fight; if not long-term/permanent maiming. A couple results are even fatal. If you scale HP and weapon damage along more "d20-ish" lines, this type of combat breaks down quickly. Either the same weapon does different damage to different people (which makes no sense), or higher "level" people quickly outpace the dangers of combat.

Massive damage would have to be a VERY low threshold (5-6 pts) to approximate this. What's the point of having the extra HP in the first place, then? The massive damage rule is a good one, and when I read WotC's take on it for CoCd20 I thought it was a good idea. But the fact is, in WH, the characters are even more vulnerable than that.

If you want to run D&D and/or d20 in the Warhammer setting, go for it. I personally would find it lacking in what makes the Old World so cool, but that's me not you. I also think that to get close to the feel of the setting and the game, there would have to be a LOT of twiddling. Like I say, though, that's just me, YMMV and all that. Do whatever you'll have fun with.
</ramble> </rant>

 

[mmadsen]

I suggested reducing hit points, etc. to keep the "Lone Goblin" -as someone called it earlier- as a viable threat.

Right, but I think you missed my point when I said:

So you reduce Hit Points, then reduce damage to fit those reduced Hit Points, and since you're using armor as DR, you have to reduce it too? Why are you reducing everything?

If your goal is to truly reduce Hit Points and make characters feel more vulnerable, don't undo your work by reducing weapon damage too.

 

[mmadsen]

To get the 'feel' of the world you don't need to make too many changes from the 3rd Ed chassis. Lose the Underdark, and introduce Chaos properly. The army books will help you here, but they're not really 'chaotic' enough for my liking. Again I heartily recommend The Lost & the Damned to you for the mutation tables and stuff.

In that vein, the Omega World mini-game in the latest Polyhedron provides mutation tables. They're for a zany post-apocalyptic world (i.e. Gamma World), but they should work.

 

[mmadsen]

If you want a "grittier" combat system, I'd suggest simply opening up all the Crit Threat Ranges a bit; effectively give everyone two levels of Improved Crit. Thus, a Goblin with a Dagger could Crit on 18-20.

Then let Crits "stack". If the Goblin rolls 18 to hit, then rolls 18 to confirm the threat, he rolls again to confirm his "double crit", and so on.

 

[Caliber]

I am unfamiliar with WHFRPG, but if you are attempting to create a more gritty/dangerous type of game, you might want to try 'exploding damage dice.'

Essentially, whenever a die rolls maximum, you are allowed to re-roll it and add the new number to the previous maximum. Continue until you stop rolling max.

This increases the average damage of nearly everything by a bit, and even without a critical, daggers can do lots of damage. Of course the more dice you roll, the more chances you have for an 'explosion' so things like 10d6 Fireballs gain a lot.

Just a thought.

 

[drakhe]

Warhammer is great break from D&D and is a lot of fun. The game system has some issues but over all works well. What really makes the game is the world history, the detail, setting.

A lot of the monsters can be taken from the MM or other books and used in d20 with just their background. At one time there was a d20 conversion site but I show the link as broken but here is a resource site:

http://www.intcon.net/~gargoyle/fantasyland/main.html

There is an active Yahoo group D20_WFRP

 

[drakhe]

Is The World of Warhammer any good? Or would the RPG book be a better buy?

This is a GREAT looking book with fantastic art. It does
include some info on the world of WFRP but it is far from
complete and in places even very sparse.

Problem with the WFRP world is that it's info is very fragmentary, especialy since there have never been any proper campaign books. Getting all the info together would be a costly affair and frankly, you'd be better off playing the original WFRP game if you spend that much money.

One major problem with Warhammer is: Games Workshop !

Why? Well, 2 reasons...

1) There is a difference between the WH world as described in the mini's game and in the RPG! There actualy is a point where the timelines in both games go their own ways. GW is pushing very hard to get both timelines on the same track! (but then see point2)

2) GW is a very hard master to please. Hogshead is now publishing WFRP and their release schedule is totaly dependant of GW. They want to have their say on each and every letter in each publication. (I heard about strict control over product from for instance Lucasfilm over all things starwars, ask decipher, but GW is another matter altogether)

Based on how GW wants to control the WH world I fear we'll never see a detailed campaign setting! Hogshead won't get permission (though I hope GW may yet see the light) and GW has no need for a separate campaign setting since it adds nothing (except perhaps flavor) to their mini games.

 

[drakhe]

This is the first I have heard of this product, I would have to look at it for more detail.

Actualy it's more of a coffee-tablke art book than a usefull RPG resource (it has some usefull info, but surely not enough and the book is way to expensive to buy just as a RPG resource)

(also see my previous post)

 

[drakhe]

I agree. I just recently got hold of a copy again (I had bought it way back in the mid-80's when it first came out). It's a great read even if you never play. I like the system a lot too, but it's definitely different from d20 & the "High Fantasy" of D&D. Combat is nasty and the world is G-R-I-M. I have to agree with Hogshead's press, too. There's a reason the rules are still 1st edition; they work. They're not perfect, but they work. I've own Ravenloft and have flipped through Scarred Lands, but -IMHO- the Old World setting has them beat for dark flavor.

I've just finished playing the "Enemy behind the Throne" campaign and I must say that the accolade of being "the best ever rpg campaign, independant of system" comes pretty close to being the truth ! Its a great campaign, but in my opinion is best served with the original WFRP rules and definatly is not intended for hack'n'slash! (though you can get that as well in WFRP, check out the Doomstones campaign)

As for WFRP versus D20 or vs DnD: It's been said in this thread before: the setting is so different that it's hard to put it in a D20 straightjacket. The great thing about the D20 straight-jacket is that it's highly adaptable. That's one of the reasons I like D20. It realy is a framework with openings for ... whatever (proof : the miriad settings spycraft, Dragonstar, WoT, CoC, ...)