Warhammer d20

[Desdichado]

I ran a WFRP campaign using D20 rules for a while.
The party got to about 5th level and I had to force them all to change to the WFRP rules.
The AD&D system doesn't support the 'Grim World of Perilous Adventure' - the power level is far too high.

How is AD&D equivalent to d20? I'm talking about running something similar to d20 Call of Cthulhu in a setting similar to Warhammer.

And beyond 5th level, there's no possibility of 'Lucky Goblin Syndrome' creeping in. In WFRP it's perfectly possible for a crummy goblin to critical and kill a powerful knight on horseback.
In AD&D, that same goblin would have to hit and critical about 40 times to have the same effect.

Uhh, CoC death from massive damage threshold of 10? Star Wars VP/WP with all crit damage going directly to WP as in the d20 Middle-earth site? Plenty of ways to do this in d20 -- I don't know what AD&D has to do with anything at all. I never played (nor was interested in) AD&D, at least since the early days of 1e.

LGS is what makes the Warhammer world 'perilous' - no character is safe from it.

Bullocks. Plenty of systems can be 'perilous' including some already in print d20 rules.

When talking about the resource books (and I think I've got 'em all now), then try to avoid the battle game books. Especially the latest release. It's too colourful and cartoon-y. Warhammer Battle has turned away from the gothic roots it had in the 80s, and is now all about selly garish coloured paints to little kids. As a result, even the skeletons have to be attractive. The world as sold by Games Workshop ain't as grim as it used to be.

I think you're talking about the last version, not the newest version. Color? The books are all black and white! Now that Mike McVey left GW, the 'colorful' clown-like models of the early 90s are long gone.

The good stuff's in the Roleplay rulebook. But without really re-hashing the HitPoint rules and downgrading spells, the D20 system is too over the top to function properly.

d20 has already done that. It's called CoC. And Star Wars. And Sovereign Stone, for that matter, if you want another type of spell system. Or WoT. What are you calling d20? From above it looks like you're equating AD&D with d20, which is patently false.

 

[Desdichado]

Re: If it's what you really want..

Things you might try to make a WHFRP-ish d20:

• Only PC races are human, elf, dwarf, halfling
• Give everyone a base d6 hit die (+1 for dwarves, -1 for halflings, minimum of 1) no CON Mod
• Gain 1 hp (yes POINT) per level.
• 5 alignments: Law, Good, Neutral, Evil & Chaos
• Spells are gained as individual skills.
• Spellcasters are prestige classes
• Mana is based off of WIS or INT score (divine v. arcane)
• Use WH spell list, the 3e spells are WAY too powerful
• Severely limit magical healing
• modify weapon damage to fit reduced hp levels,etc.
• Armor = damage absorption
• armor (even plate) only absorbs 1 or 2 pts of damage
• use CoC-style insanity rules for certain monster effects and for spellcaster progression as necromancer or demonologist (don't forget diseases! )

Let's look at each of your points and see if they're really necessary or not.

• PC races - easy enough. In CoC you only have one PC race anyway, in WoT you only have two.
• CoC has HD of d6 -- although I fail to see how that is "important" in capturing the feel of the setting.
• 1 hit point per level? So what? Why do I have to do that? Combat is deadly enough (potentially) in CoC, for example, that this is unecessary. And, if I really wanted to do it anyway? Why not, it's easy enough to do.
• I don't like alignments at all. I'd axe this whole thing.
• Spells as skills - already done in Star Wars -- even harder in CoC where they are feats (actually, that's psionic powers, but effectively they're the same thing.) Spells are worse in CoC. Soverign Stone also has spells as skills.
• Spellcasters as prestige classes - or not even classes at all, as in CoC. Doing it this way is harder necessary to capture the same feel.
• Mana - screw mana. If you're already doing spells as skills, mana is superflous.
• Use CoC spell list, or hijack the Star Wars force powers list. 3e spells are too powerful, but I never said converting Warhammer to 3e, I said converting Warhammer to d20 which is very different.
• No magic healing in CoC.
• Why modify weapon damage? First you want to drastically lower HPs to make the setting "grim" and "perilous" but then you want to scale weapon damage to match it, so the net effect is 0? Talk about wasting your time.
• Armor - already like that in Star Wars. Not necessary to capture the feel of the setting anyway.
• Armor reduction values would have to be made up anyway, as Star Wars doesn't feature plate armor or chain mail anyway.
• Well, since CoC insanity rules are already present in a d20 game (as are WoT insanity rules, which are even simpler and work well too) I don't see what the problem is.

See, what you want to do is convert the system to d20. I want to convert the setting to d20. You're also confusing D&D3e with d20, and not taking advantage of other d20 games already in print. Most of these changes you're calling for are either already present in d20 CoC (at least in feel, if not in the exact mechanic) or don't really have anything to do with the setting, so don't need to be converted anyway.

Are you still playing d20 at this point? It sure ain't D&D 3e.

See above. I'm not looking for D&D3e, and most of your changes are not as necessary as you seem to think they are anyway.

 

[Hand of Evil]

d20 has already done that. It's called CoC. And Star Wars. And Sovereign Stone, for that matter, if you want another type of spell system. Or WoT. What are you calling d20? From above it looks like you're equating AD&D with d20, which is patently false.

Have to agree, making a setting as grim and dangerous as WFRP is not that difficult with d20, a little adjustment and you have it.

Everquest is a mana based system.

 

[Eccles]

Oh dear, here we go. Why do these things always end up so confrontational?

How is AD&D equivalent to d20? I'm talking about running something similar to d20 Call of Cthulhu in a setting similar to Warhammer.

AD&D 3rd Ed rules. I think we can safely write off the previous editions. But as you point out in the rest of your message, D20 is a massively wide-ranging selection of rules systems now, and I was using AD&D as the benchmark. Perhaps I ought to have said 3rd ed. I apologise.

Uhh, CoC death from massive damage threshold of 10? Star Wars VP/WP with all crit damage going directly to WP as in the d20 Middle-earth site? Plenty of ways to do this in d20 -- I don't know what AD&D has to do with anything at all. I never played (nor was interested in) AD&D, at least since the early days of 1e.

If you're looking for a set of rules, those supplied by Kengar, above, struck me as being really rather good. And to be honest I'm not a fan of the VP/WP system. A low massive damage threshold might work, though.

Bullocks. Plenty of systems can be 'perilous' including some already in print d20 rules.

Yeah, but you try it with a straight conversion from the 3rd Ed rulebook. You need to tweak it quite substantially...

I think you're talking about the last version, not the newest version. Color? The books are all black and white! Now that Mike McVey left GW, the 'colorful' clown-like models of the early 90s are long gone.

Nope. The last 2 versions of the battle games have been all about turning the game into a rather complicated game of chess. The backstory has been thrown to one sided to a large extent. If you're trying to run a gritty game, the last thing you want is a dwarf flying about in an attack helicopter...

d20 has already done that. It's called CoC. And Star Wars. And Sovereign Stone, for that matter, if you want another type of spell system. Or WoT. What are you calling d20? From above it looks like you're equating AD&D with d20, which is patently false.

Indeed I am, for the reasoning above. D20 takes in anything from 300+ hitpoints per person to about 12 with a massive damage threshold of 10. D20 doesn't actually mean anything to me... Besides, Star Wars (and Spycraft) are only "perilous" one time in 20...

 

[Aaron2]

I really haven't found WHFRP to be all that deadly compared to low level D&D play. With the Wound score/system, its possible to fight on after many hits. Plus, increases in Toughness (esp wrt dwarves) can make your character all but immune to normal weapons.

Start at 0th level, don't get max hit point at first level, and substantially lower XP awards. This will get you 90% of the way there.

To handle the availability of magic just move the spells/day chart up a few levels (so a third level wizards gets the spells from the first level chart).

The only tough spot is that in WFRP, arcane spell casters can cast healing spells. Your call ...


Aaron

 

[Desdichado]

Hey, how'd we get moved to d20 systems games, when we're not talking about any d20 systems games specifically?

Grrr... there goes the thread into oblivion for no reason.

Anyways, to answer a few questions: I guess I got confused by your use of AD&D. 3e is not AD&D it's simply D&D. The last AD&D game was 2e, which had nothing whatsoever to do with d20, obviously. And I still don't know what you're talking about with the 7th (I think) edition army books. They're not colorful. They're not whimsical. They're the best I've seen them in years. And I mean years I've been following Warhammer (often on the fringe -- I've never been a huge army collector) since the early/mid 80s. They've never been darker.

 

[Eccles]

You're right, actually.

The latest edition is a heck of a lot better than the couple before it.

But if you want dark, the battle game is still a bit 'cartoony', if you know what I mean, compared to the chronic menace from the RPG, if run properly. There are tanks, helicopters and lightning throwing cannon, for crying out loud!

At least in the battle game, everyone's been fighting each other to a standstill for centuries.

The WFRP version is constant and menacing. And Chaos is genuinely chaotic and scary. If you're serious about getting the feel of the game, I can't recommend strongly enough that you lay your hands on the mutation tables from Realms of Chaos - The Lost & The Damned. I only took the book to the table 3 times, and they were nervous the second time around...!

 

[Krug]

Come on good ole Felix and Gotrek are heroic as well aren't they? 5th level... now really...

 

[mmadsen]

Re: If it's what you really want..

• Give everyone a base d6 hit die (+1 for dwarves, -1 for halflings, minimum of 1) no CON Mod
• Gain 1 hp (yes POINT) per level.
• modify weapon damage to fit reduced hp levels,etc.
• Armor = damage absorption
• armor (even plate) only absorbs 1 or 2 pts of damage

So you reduce Hit Points, then reduce damage to fit those reduced Hit Points, and since you're using armor as DR, you have to reduce it too? Why are you reducing everything?

 

[Desdichado]

Re: Re: If it's what you really want..

So you reduce Hit Points, then reduce damage to fit those reduced Hit Points, and since you're using armor as DR, you have to reduce it too? Why are you reducing everything?

Exactly my point as well -- if a rules change has a net zero effect, don't do it. I'm not asking for conversions of the Warhammer system, which I find to be old fashioned and a bit on the clunky side -- I'm asking for the setting (or something very like it) in d20 -- grittiness and grimness and all. Doing things exactly like they were in the old game is kinda redundant: if that's what I wanted, I wouldn't ask for it to be converted into d20, I'd just play that system.