Warhammer Flavor in D&D

[Felon]

The very first 3E game I was in, someone played a dwarven barbarian modelled on the trollslayers. He had the mohawk, a dwarven urgrosh, and a grudge against goblins. He was completely nuts. Damn, we had fun.

Heheh. Yeah, I use a slayer mini for my dwarven fighter/barbarian/ranger/frenzied berserker.

I can see your point totally and I agree. The DnD approach is fine as well, but the Warhammer approach is more realistic and obviously more gritty. Starting characters are pretty wretched in WHFRPG, and that is a good thing, the world is harsh, uncaring and everyone is out to get you. .

Yeah, give me a wizard-burning warrior-priest garbed in barbed-wire armor over a happy, shiny priest of Pelor any old day of the week.

I don't know if I'd try to preserve every aspect of the WHFRPG when making a d20 conversion (after all, at some point you have to ask yourself what you're trying to gain my doing the conversion). Personally, I relish the adversity of Warhammer, but not the notion that starting characters should be feeble. What fun is it to be powerless when some nasty chaos daemon pops up on the board? Brandish that great weapon and have at it!

 

[kengar]

I don't know if I'd try to preserve every aspect of the WHFRPG when making a d20 conversion (after all, at some point you have to ask yourself what you're trying to gain my doing the conversion). Personally, I relish the adversity of Warhammer, but not the notion that starting characters should be feeble. What fun is it to be powerless when some nasty chaos daemon pops up on the board? Brandish that great weapon and have at it!

I agree. There is a point in the conversion process where you have to ask "Why not just play Warhammer?"

I think that part of the feel to WHFRP is that when you encounter a chaos demon as a "low level" character... YOU RUN AWAY! The grittiness and the lower power level (at least starting out) in WH helps to set the tone, IMHO. Characters have to use their wits more than their swords to get through the day. If they're tough and smart, they survive and get more powerful. A wizard's apprentice isn't necessarily feeble, he just can't count on spells to solve every challenge. Just like a novice warrior can't fight his way out of every problem.

When I've played WH, part of what kept me from feeling too powerless was the setting itself. The Old World is full of cities and towns. Most of the adventures I was in took place "in civilization" instead of dungeon crawls. Swordfights and blasts of magic in the streets would have caused more trouble than they were worth. Roleplaying, rogue-skills like bribery and the like was more important than combat. Wizards are handy because folks are scared of them (just steer clear of the Witch Hunters!)

One adventure, we had a few messy fights in alleys and a wicked encounter with beastmen in the hold of a cargo ship. (actually, the wizard was quite useful in the ship fight because his light spell wouldn't set off the gunpowder in the hold). But most of what we did was dodge city guards (we'd been framed by a corrupt merchant-cultist) and look for stolen weapons. It was a blast.

I know that 3e can be made to fit this kind of setting & tone to a degree. The fact is, as characters in D&D progress, they become powerful enough to ignore most mundane challenges. Even lowering the Massive Damage limit isn't much use when the character has a +16 to their Fort Save v. a DC15! That kind of "Oh, I just let the orcs swing away and concentrate on the evil cleric!" doesn't work in WH, and that's part of what I really like about it.

 

[mmadsen]

There is a d20WHFRP Yahoo Group that has done a lot of conversion work already. I haven't read all of it, but one thing that I wasn't super-enthused about was the extent to which they used 3e rules & classes.

Isn't that the point of a d20 conversion?

One issue I've had, though, is Level-progression. I'm not entirely happy with the way that skills and abilities (Saves, BAB, etc.) all jump each time you level up.

I can see how that might be a general complaint about d20, but it hardly seems like it would ruin the Warhammer feel of a game. If anything, I'd think the magic system and the combat system would present the real problems.

 

[Felon]

I think that part of the feel to WHFRP is that when you encounter a chaos demon as a "low level" character... YOU RUN AWAY! The grittiness and the lower power level (at least starting out) in WH helps to set the tone, IMHO. Characters have to use their wits more than their swords to get through the day. If they're tough and smart, they survive and get more powerful. A wizard's apprentice isn't necessarily feeble, he just can't count on spells to solve every challenge. Just like a novice warrior can't fight his way out of every problem.

That's a pretty accurate assessment of what I like about Warhammer as well. Ponder this: in trying to maintain the same power scale as in WHFRPG, how about just having CR creatures pop up at earlier levels? A 1st-level fighter or mage in D&D still needs to run like hell from a CR4+ demon.

In fact, if you make the process for creating and purchasing magic items more difficult, 3e characters in general don't pack the same punch. D&D characters take for granted that they'll have some means for punching through a monster's damage reduction. What happens when they face off against a vampire, and nobody has a magic weapon?

One adventure, we had a few messy fights in alleys and a wicked encounter with beastmen in the hold of a cargo ship. (actually, the wizard was quite useful in the ship fight because his light spell wouldn't set off the gunpowder in the hold). But most of what we did was dodge city guards (we'd been framed by a corrupt merchant-cultist) and look for stolen weapons. It was a blast.

That's pretty representative of traditional heroic fantasy. Generally it's human(oid)-vs-human(oid), and encounters with huge monstrosities making for a very deadly encounter. Not unlike the battle in Balin's tomb, where the heroes hold their own against all the wretched little gobbers, but when the troll comes stomping in...look out!!!

I know that 3e can be made to fit this kind of setting & tone to a degree. The fact is, as characters in D&D progress, they become powerful enough to ignore most mundane challenges. Even lowering the Massive Damage limit isn't much use when the character has a +16 to their Fort Save v. a DC15! That kind of "Oh, I just let the orcs swing away and concentrate on the evil cleric!" doesn't work in WH, and that's part of what I really like about it. [/B]

Making the Massive Damage DC a flat 15 was done for some reason, and I'm not quite sure what it was. Perhaps it was so that scrawny old wizards can't survive the same things that a dwarven daemon slayer can?

 

[kengar]

Isn't that the point of a d20 conversion?

d20 <> 3e

I know this is really a matter of personal taste, but I would prefer a conversion that avoids using D&D classes, spells, etc. WHd20 as opposed to WHCS.

I can how that might be a general complaint about d20, but it hardly seems like it would ruin the Warhammer feel of a game. If anything, I'd think the magic system and the combat system would present the real problems.

I don't think it would "ruin" it. I just think it could be done better. Combat -as I've said before- would very probably work lifted straight from CoCd20 with some colorful Crit Tables added in. Magic is much trickier, but I think a CoC style of learning magic as opposed to the Vancian 3e slots/level is closer to the mark.

Here's a thought, Felon: for Massive Damage, taking >CON in HP triggers the Save and the DC = 10+(Damage-CON). Thus, a warrior (CON 16) taking 25 pts of damage in a single blow makes a Fort Save DC 19 or dies. DC = 10 + (25-16=9). Just an idea.

 

[Breakdaddy]

Orcs that sprout like mushrooms.

Dwarves with orange mohawks.

Im with Hung on this one, Orange Mohawks on dwarves rule!

 

[mmadsen]

I forgot to mention the lovely meshing of the Sanity rules too! No need to change a thing from CoC, really. The SAN loss rules also inspired me to play with the idea of a "Corruption" score (similar to LOTR RPG). Where chaos can corrupt and warp you over time (growing horns, diseases, etc.).

Other good inspirations might be Star Wars, with its Dark Side points, and Ravenloft, with its Powers Checks leading down the Path of Corruption.

 

[kengar]

Other good inspirations might be Star Wars, with its Dark Side points, and Ravenloft, with its Powers Checks leading down the Path of Corruption.

Right! Ravenloft! I forgot about Power Checks. That would work great. I haven't read SW so I couldn't say about that.

 

[Ulrick]

I just bought the Warhammer Fantasy Role Play book about a month ago. Although I doubt I'll never use the game mechanics and rules therein, it has lots of "crunchy" ideas ripe for the picking.

I do like the combat system...its like MERPS in that bloody agonizing wounds happen more often. It gives it a realistic edge that makes one think twice before rushing off into combat.

I would love to have a critical hit chart like this in D&D.

I like how its pseudo-based on our own world. It has such a dark atmosphere. Hordes of Chaos sweep across the landscape. Even civilization, the great and mighty Empire, barely holds on.

I'd play a D&D game in the Old World rather than Forgotten Realms anyday.

And its easy to convert the monsters in Warhammer...since most of them came from D&D anyway.

It has a deep and grim history. Mankind seems to have evolved because of Chaos, and Chaos shall also be its downfall!

I use all the above in my own homebrew world.

I also like the Warriors of Chaos mutation table on p. 230. It gave me some ideas for my games. However, now the Book of Vile Darkness has a similiar table that I will use.

And, of course, Fimirs!

I always wondered about these creatures since my Barbarian slew one in that old game Heroquest. They're not really orcs or goblins, and they are stronger. And I'd never read about them anywhere else. Finally, Warhammer Fantasy answered all those questions! Heh.

I'm working on converting them into D&D stats.

Ulrick

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I like how its pseudo-based on our own world.

Which, of course, allows you to blatantly steal all kinds of stuff from the real world, and get away with it!

OTOH, if you are planning to run some pre-published adventures, better hope that none of your players are more proficient in German than you are...