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Warhammer frpg - 2e vs 4e

Jaeger

That someone better.
A simple system is fine, but it carries its own problems. Perhaps the aggregate of things it fixed from 2nd have made it cumbersome in your opinion. Though if you were a fan of 2nd edition then I’m not surprised you don’t like the system.

By simpler system - I'm of course speaking in comparison to 4e.

A proper 2e revision - would be simpler than 4e, yet no one will be calling it rules-light anytime soon.

4e solves some issues, which is great. And they should have stopped there. But then 4e goes on to add complexity, introducing different gameplay issues, and slowing down play at the table for those that prefer to do things with just pen, paper, and dice.


I’m not sure I agree with you. ..... Everyone else is getting on with it and enjoying the new edition. Second Ed ran for 3 years. Fourth Ed has already ran for 3 and shows no sign of stopping yet.

Of course it is doing well, WFRP has a tremendous back catalogue that is being remastered for 4e.

And like I said, they will get a lot of sourcebook sales from 1-2e players because it is trivial to swap stat blocks in adventures like TEW. (They'll probably get more of my money that way, on top of what they already got with my 4e rulebook purchase.)

But how many first time WFRP players are taking up the game with 4e and sticking with it?

Whether it works fine for you or not, WFRP 4e has a reputation as a more complex edition with wonky rules.

That is a reputation that does not help in attracting new blood to the WFRP fan base. And once reputations like that are gained, they are impossible to shake.

You can only milk the existing WFRP fan base for so long.


Can we at least agree that 3e was a bad system?

Yes.

Warhammer 3e lead to Star Wars/Genesys,

Yet another reason to agree with Retreater!
 
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schneeland

Adventurer
In my opinion: WFRP 4e is the new Shadowrun 6e.
Hey, it might be bad, but not THAT bad ;)
Contrary to Shadowrun 6, I didn't feel there's a lot of people who really hate WFRP 4e (well, after this thread maybe a few more ;)), but I personally also perceived it as too fiddly (especially due to having success levels, comparative tests and advantage at the same time). Likewise, I got the sense that it's not generating the same sort of traction as earlier editions, too. And even the people in my circles that do like the game readily admit that they would like to see a cleaned up version.
My personal conclusion is that if I decide to tackle TEW (which I would love to, since I own the 1e books, but never played it), I will either play it using Warhammer 2e rules, or - more likely - a modded version of the Warlock! system.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
My opinion continues to be that WFRP is a great RPG setting perpetually held back by mediocre systems.

Perpetually? I disagree. 2e was a solid system, and I even used it for a 3-year campaign set in a non wharhammer setting (Anatolia 1150 if you must know).

Was it perfect? No.

What I'm wondering if there are elements of 4e that are worth mining and bringing to 2e. The opposed check seems like a good one...
 

GuyBoy

Adventurer
Perpetually? I disagree. 2e was a solid system, and I even used it for a 3-year campaign set in a non wharhammer setting (Anatolia 1150 if you must know).

Was it perfect? No.

What I'm wondering if there are elements of 4e that are worth mining and bringing to 2e. The opposed check seems like a good one...
At the risk of hijacking, Anatolia 1150 sounds interesting; impact of 2nd Crusade playing out, Manuel Komnenus as a pretty energetic Byzantine Emperor. How did you play it out?
 

CapnZapp

Legend
BUT - when you say "It's trivial to increase a Characteristic/Skill to a level no NPC can withstand." and other people have pointed out, more than once, that to increase one characteristic really high requires a very significant XP investment, and you still call it trivial... it sorts of undermines your arguments :/
Well, maybe trivial isn't the best choice of word.

What I mean is there can be various checks and balances imposed by a system. Sometimes for very good reasons, as in, the game would have been not nearly as good without them. Limitations are not inherently bad.

Anyway - forcing you to advance into several careers before you can increase a certain stat very much is one approach. This ensures you need to pay XP for not only the stat increase itself, but a lot of other stuff as well, molding a more well-rounded character and, more importantly, overall delaying the time when your high stat becomes a problem.

But there's another layer - not allowing you to increase your stat that much at all!

WFRP2 very wisely just don't allow you to increase a Skill to more than 20% above its Characteristic, and you can't increase a Characteristic to more than 40% above your starting value (IIRC). And even then, you need a very particular set of Careers to be allowed this maximum. And even then, the game just don't use opposed Tests to nearly the same extent as WFRP4. And there are no Talent system to further abuse the freedom.

The result is that you can't just swoop in and flash your very high skill score to just steamroll any reasonable opposition.

Is this trivial to do for a character? Maybe not. After all, you still need to adventure a fair amount.

But it is trivial for the player. There are no hoops you need to jump through. At no stage does the game try to keep you from doing this, or even suggest this is maybe a bad idea.

An even bigger question is: why was this added? How does this make the Warhammer experience better?

---

I appreciate your concern over how my messages are perceived, Ancalagon! Honestly though, I must confess I have little patience for those that bend over backwards to not see my point, those that make an effort to find issues with my communication for the sole reason to be able to dismiss it.

tl;dr: If you don't want my help, I sure won't work to give it to you.

It would however be correct to claim I'm not sugar-coating my summary of this game (or indeed any other) - I don't believe in avoiding criticism merely to avoid hurting the feeling of creators. We must be able to objectively evaluate different levels of rpg design quality. And so I am not really concerned with how my communication is perceived by people that can't cope if their favorite games are shown to possess flaws. That said, I try my best to avoid personal attacks, but I am not without fault myself, and it does happen I cross a line. But I do try to keep the focus on the work, and not the person.

I perceive myself as discussing with people genuinely open to the possibility a game can be objectively good or objectively bad, and that this game is straight-up better designed than that one. Unfortunately there is a far too common sentiment around that any reviews should focus on the good and avoid detailing the bad to create a nice cosy atmosphere where everybody loves the games I play. To me, that's indistinguishable from shilling. If a game's design is flawed we should be able to discuss that without getting dismissed as just a matter of opinion. Furthermore, I see myself discussing with readers interested in hearing the experiences of somebody that actually did the grunt work and played a game thoroughly, trying their very best to extensively house rule any wonky stuff as he encountered it, not just hating on a game for superficial reasons.

Have a nice day
 

TheSword

Legend
I was always taught that true criticism includes recognizing the good as well as the bad. When someone just launches into the bad and doesn’t recognize the good it implies bias.

Before someone points out that I only recognize the good I will make clear there are things about the game that I don’t like. The bestiary needs substantially development, I don’t like that ammo carries additional qualities above the weapons and I don’t like that reading and writing is so hard to get in a game with so many written handouts. I also don’t like that there aren’t greater balancing mechanisms for Elves and Dwarves.

I just don’t think the things Capn thinks are bad, are problems at all. They’re features - and very interesting ones at that.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
At the risk of hijacking, Anatolia 1150 sounds interesting; impact of 2nd Crusade playing out, Manuel Komnenus as a pretty energetic Byzantine Emperor. How did you play it out?
That is a big question lol.

So, trying not to get this too long...

The game was set in the city of Zeugma, which in my world had not fallen and was still around at that time - notably because they had a guild of Blue Mages that help steer the city. It was nominally part of Edessa but de-facto independent. (see Zeugma (Commagene) - Wikipedia )

Egypt was ruled by elves, who were refugees from Atlantis. Elves did not grow old with age, and it was currently ruled by Horus.

The Dwarves had lost their ancient homelands. For a while they found refuge in Egypt and did great works for the Elves, but that relationship broke down and they were a scattered people.

An important local figure was Nur Ad Din, part of the Seljuk Turks, a people who had migrated from the far east and were good on horses (hobgoblins, but they disliked the term).

This is what happened in Arc one:

1: The saga begins. Party hired by Jaffar, an ambitious merchant, to guard a warehouse where some his goods are stored. It turns out the owner of the warehouse hasn't been paying protection money to the local thieve's guild.

2: Fake brigrandry. The party becomes retainer of Jaffar. He asks the party to perform a delicate task - to create the illusion of heavy brigand presence upon a certain trade route. However, the party is forced to intervene to save pilgrims from turkish raiders. The party enounters Hassan, a mysterious bowman. The party also encounters Stephanos of Trebizon and his group.

3: Lost and Found: The party hears rumors of a lost magical item within the city and starts looking for it. It turns out that this is a training exercise by the local mage guild. However, the party also learns of another, much more powerful item being smuggled in - a wand infused with the deadly ice magic, Omptose Phellac. The party makes the aquaintance of Valmaxian, a reclusive elven sorcerer, agda the witch, Alcanter the Blue, Thrain Silvertouched (the Spirit Satrap) and of Feanaro Culnamo, an "elven shop" owner".

4: Grave Hunt: The scribe Ophelos has found an old parchment indicating the true location of the tomb of Selecus I Nicator, founder of Zeugma (one of Alexander's generals). The city approaches the party to go on an expedition in echange for a share of the treasure. After a few days of travel, the tomb is found inside a barrow which the locals swear is haunted. After defeating the goblins inside (who were tricking the peasants into making offerings) and the undead guardiands, the tomb is secured, will with many historical artefacts and quite a lot of treasure, including the griffin's claw, an enchanted sword made of damascus steel.

5: Liberation of Carablos: Rumors of war, as Joscelin II is captured by Nur Ad Din as they were ambushed while looking for turkish raiders. Jaffar has report that the town of Carablos, a critical suply point on the way to Bagdas, is extorting travelers under the order of a new governor. Party investigates and is joined by mysterious vagrant, Assad the lepper. The governor turns out to be consorting with necromancers and worse, and Assad to be a man not to cross. Violent confrontation ensues.

6: The Zeugma Hastildude: Party members take part in traditional martial games, demonstrating archery, riding and swordsmanship. A jousting demonstration is done and is deemed to be a silly western practice. The party does well - Orzad reaches the semi final and loses vs Christophoros, the reigning champion of the melee (Christophoros is then defeated by a newcomer, Du Hamel, a templar). Peklar wins the horserace, and Amandil reaches the archery finals.

7: Property fraud: a complex scheme is unleashed upon Zeugma, where the conman sells tiny parcells of lands to commoners to give them the right to vote. As the next election will be for the Spirit Satrap, religious tentions flare. The party attemps to investigate and profit. The conman escapes!

8: A trip to Antep: The party pursues the conman to the nearby city of Antep, as a large bounty is on his head. On the way, meet NubZeb the goblin. Antep situation made complicated by the conman hiring local thief guild, by members of the zeugma thief guild also being after the bounty, by actual assassins being after the conman and by Antep being besieged by the Sultanate of Rum! Nubzeb is instrumental in gaining accept as he knows of a secret tunel. The conman is killed, his money siezed by Antep authorities, and some dwarves escape Antep and migrate to Zeugma with the party.

9: A trip to Abu Kabal: Jaffar realizes that with the disruption from the conman, the success of a Zeugma caravan on its way back from Bagdad is suddenly of grave import. The party goes south to rejoin the caravan and help escort it north back to safety. After traveling 150 leagues, the caravan is found. On the way back to Zeugma, the caravan is beset by a habboob - a sandstorm. 3 desert ogres - far more cunning than ordinary ogres and wielding magic, use the cover of the storm to attack.


10: Anti-Banditry: Antep pays tribute to Turks who abandon siege - for now. While the party was away, Jaffar organized small caravan going east, which was attacked by bandits. Jaffar wants revenge, his goods back but most importantly a magical ring that "can see ahead" and a very valuable slave. The party dispenses justice and travel to Edessa, the fallen crusaser city, which has become a camp for slave traders. On the way, the party meets Cengis the mule skinner, and Crius, a large mysterious being garding a hidden door. The slave turns out to be a Circassian beauty that is highly educated in the codes of law - a bride for the Paper Satrap.

11: A trip to Allepo: Valmaxian examines the ring and declares it to be not a divination tool but the ring of many parts, which can be used to retrieve an ancient magical item hidden beneath the Citadel of Allepo - the staff of storms! The party agrees to help. What follows is extremely eventful, with earthquakes, the staff retrieved, Joscellin II, count of Edessa, found and rescued and the woman Le-ka, resurected but put inside a golden automaton, who now claims to be the Avatar of Ishtar, Goddess of love and war.

12: Upward Mobility: Jaffar tries to become a council member on the merchant guild. Someone tries to assassinate "him" - but his servant is the true target. Templars are involved, and the assassin's guild is not happy someone is poaching on their turf. An arangement is made with the templars - but Agda the witch foresees blood - BLOOOOOOODD!!! Hassan informs party that Jaffar is still in danger. While traveling on protection detail, the party is attacked by would be assassins - but the party proves to be the anvil upon with the local assassin hammer the would be interlopers. Many dead. Jaffar wins election. Amandil dreams of bloody pyramid.

13: Delaying action: Nur Ad Din is enraged by Joscelin II's escape and decides to strike Turbesell (Joscelin's forteress) before Joscelin is ready. Zeugma decides to help covertly - the party, some assassins (Hassans, Assad and the black dwarf of zeugma!!!), an Amber mage and other sellswords (including Stephanos's group) are recruited to start gerilla campaign. Party convinces goblins to help. Enemy scouts are ambushed, bridges are torched, horses are spooked, siege engines are burned down and enemy mages are furiously murdered. Eventually, armenian relief force shows up, and Nur Ad Din withdraws.

14: Jailbreak: Egyptian Ambasador has learned that Valmaxian has left and is a follower of set - the Staff of storm is a key to release him. Blue guild forsees a key event and are troubled. Agda the witch flees the city. Party has doubt, as Set's emprisonment could be considered unjust. They return to the valley where they met Crius (who is no longer present). They do not manage to stop Valmaxian in time, and Set is released at night. He blots the moon out with his hand and declares that there are not four elements, there are five. Once the darkness disperses and the moon returns to normal, he and his servants are gone.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I appreciate your concern over how my messages are perceived, Ancalagon! Honestly though, I must confess I have little patience for those that bend over backwards to not see my point, those that make an effort to find issues with my communication for the sole reason to be able to dismiss it.

tl;dr: If you don't want my help, I sure won't work to give it to you.

It would however be correct to claim I'm not sugar-coating my summary of this game (or indeed any other) - I don't believe in avoiding criticism merely to avoid hurting the feeling of creators. We must be able to objectively evaluate different levels of rpg design quality. And so I am not really concerned with how my communication is perceived by people that can't cope if their favorite games are shown to possess flaws. That said, I try my best to avoid personal attacks, but I am not without fault myself, and it does happen I cross a line. But I do try to keep the focus on the work, and not the person.

I perceive myself as discussing with people genuinely open to the possibility a game can be objectively good or objectively bad, and that this game is straight-up better designed than that one. Unfortunately there is a far too common sentiment around that any reviews should focus on the good and avoid detailing the bad to create a nice cosy atmosphere where everybody loves the games I play. To me, that's indistinguishable from shilling. If a game's design is flawed we should be able to discuss that without getting dismissed as just a matter of opinion. Furthermore, I see myself discussing with readers interested in hearing the experiences of somebody that actually did the grunt work and played a game thoroughly, trying their very best to extensively house rule any wonky stuff as he encountered it, not just hating on a game for superficial reasons.

Have a nice day

I should start by saying that I appreciate your posts because you often have substantive issues and points - they are worth engaging with, there is material here, it's not just fluff. I am stating this because sometimes this engagement means I will disagree with you, which may have given the impression that I find your posts rubbish or somesuch.

And I completely agree with you that there ARE objective statements can make about a game, it's not just about tastes - some systems DO work better than others. I also agree with you that allowing someone to max up a score (maybe to make a "diplomancer"?) easily is bad design, and that this makes 4e worse than 2e.

However, the fact that doing so necessitates a very significant XP improvement, and while you are doing this your PC is not improving in other things that could help them survive... that's not trivial is it? So your conclusion is still sound (the firm limits of 2e were a good thing!), but it's less of a problem than you made it sound to be. So as a reader who hasn't done a lot of playtesting of 4e, when I see things like this, it causes my confidence in your conclusions to waiver a bit, because it makes you seem less objective. You also don't respond well to criticism of your analysis. I think "is this trivial or not" to be a substantive point, but instead you see it as "my communication is perceived by people that can't cope if their favorite games are shown to possess flaws", which sounds like a dodge.

You probably are thinking "what a nitpicking-pedant, who is he to criticize my posting style, he's annoying!". And yeah, a little? My communication style isn't perfect either. Nobody is - including yours.

anyway, all this to say I hope we can continue discussing this - I'm about to destroy advantage :)
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I've been thinking about this "vs rolls" and the consequence on combat and design... I think the key is "does the attacker failling help the defender (beyond not being hit)".

Let us return to the 4 goblins vs the master swordsman. Now I think in general we can agree that it's a bad idea for 4 goblins to tangle with a master swordsman - they are going to die, it doesn't matter if it's 2e, 4e or in other systems like Troika! or D&D. The goblins are going to lose in this fight, period. That's not the problem.

In a system like D&D or warhammer 2e, the check is either unopposed (the swordsman has static defenses) or sort of (the swordsman can parry/dodge). But in either way there is no real "consequence" for failing to hit the swordsman. The goblins are no worse off for trying to attack the swordsman (in fact in 2e there are significant bonuses for ganging up on someone, so this might actually work!), besides now being in the reach of the swordsman' blade.

However, in 4e (or Troika!) attacking the swordsman helps the swordsman. By attacking the swordsman and failing, the goblins are either granting the swordsman advantage (4e) or allow him to hit the goblins (Troika!). In fact, if the goblins must engage the swordsman in melee, the best thing they can do is just show up and hang out, wave their daggers around but not actually attack! (even more so if they have a dodge action of some kind, but let's ignore that for now). It will take far longer for the swordsman to dispatch the goblins if they aren't assisting him by trying to stab him.

I think there are a lot of benefits to an opposed roll for combat - it certainly helps with WH's whiffiness for example. But as soon as there is a benefit to the defender if the attacker misses (advantage or a counter-attack), we risk creating a system where weaker foes attacking the PCs helps the PCs, which is really bizarre if you ask me.
 

Retreater

Legend
Last night my group voted unanimously to forge ahead with "The Enemy Within" in Warhammer 4e. They reasoned that they didn't want to try to learn a new system (2e, Warlock, etc.), still thinking they can manage the challenges of 4e. It's not a simple system, but they do think it's rewarding enough to continue to try it.
 

GuyBoy

Adventurer
That is a big question lol.

So, trying not to get this too long...

The game was set in the city of Zeugma, which in my world had not fallen and was still around at that time - notably because they had a guild of Blue Mages that help steer the city. It was nominally part of Edessa but de-facto independent. (see Zeugma (Commagene) - Wikipedia )

Egypt was ruled by elves, who were refugees from Atlantis. Elves did not grow old with age, and it was currently ruled by Horus.

The Dwarves had lost their ancient homelands. For a while they found refuge in Egypt and did great works for the Elves, but that relationship broke down and they were a scattered people.

An important local figure was Nur Ad Din, part of the Seljuk Turks, a people who had migrated from the far east and were good on horses (hobgoblins, but they disliked the term).

This is what happened in Arc one:

1: The saga begins. Party hired by Jaffar, an ambitious merchant, to guard a warehouse where some his goods are stored. It turns out the owner of the warehouse hasn't been paying protection money to the local thieve's guild.

2: Fake brigrandry. The party becomes retainer of Jaffar. He asks the party to perform a delicate task - to create the illusion of heavy brigand presence upon a certain trade route. However, the party is forced to intervene to save pilgrims from turkish raiders. The party enounters Hassan, a mysterious bowman. The party also encounters Stephanos of Trebizon and his group.

3: Lost and Found: The party hears rumors of a lost magical item within the city and starts looking for it. It turns out that this is a training exercise by the local mage guild. However, the party also learns of another, much more powerful item being smuggled in - a wand infused with the deadly ice magic, Omptose Phellac. The party makes the aquaintance of Valmaxian, a reclusive elven sorcerer, agda the witch, Alcanter the Blue, Thrain Silvertouched (the Spirit Satrap) and of Feanaro Culnamo, an "elven shop" owner".

4: Grave Hunt: The scribe Ophelos has found an old parchment indicating the true location of the tomb of Selecus I Nicator, founder of Zeugma (one of Alexander's generals). The city approaches the party to go on an expedition in echange for a share of the treasure. After a few days of travel, the tomb is found inside a barrow which the locals swear is haunted. After defeating the goblins inside (who were tricking the peasants into making offerings) and the undead guardiands, the tomb is secured, will with many historical artefacts and quite a lot of treasure, including the griffin's claw, an enchanted sword made of damascus steel.

5: Liberation of Carablos: Rumors of war, as Joscelin II is captured by Nur Ad Din as they were ambushed while looking for turkish raiders. Jaffar has report that the town of Carablos, a critical suply point on the way to Bagdas, is extorting travelers under the order of a new governor. Party investigates and is joined by mysterious vagrant, Assad the lepper. The governor turns out to be consorting with necromancers and worse, and Assad to be a man not to cross. Violent confrontation ensues.

6: The Zeugma Hastildude: Party members take part in traditional martial games, demonstrating archery, riding and swordsmanship. A jousting demonstration is done and is deemed to be a silly western practice. The party does well - Orzad reaches the semi final and loses vs Christophoros, the reigning champion of the melee (Christophoros is then defeated by a newcomer, Du Hamel, a templar). Peklar wins the horserace, and Amandil reaches the archery finals.

7: Property fraud: a complex scheme is unleashed upon Zeugma, where the conman sells tiny parcells of lands to commoners to give them the right to vote. As the next election will be for the Spirit Satrap, religious tentions flare. The party attemps to investigate and profit. The conman escapes!

8: A trip to Antep: The party pursues the conman to the nearby city of Antep, as a large bounty is on his head. On the way, meet NubZeb the goblin. Antep situation made complicated by the conman hiring local thief guild, by members of the zeugma thief guild also being after the bounty, by actual assassins being after the conman and by Antep being besieged by the Sultanate of Rum! Nubzeb is instrumental in gaining accept as he knows of a secret tunel. The conman is killed, his money siezed by Antep authorities, and some dwarves escape Antep and migrate to Zeugma with the party.

9: A trip to Abu Kabal: Jaffar realizes that with the disruption from the conman, the success of a Zeugma caravan on its way back from Bagdad is suddenly of grave import. The party goes south to rejoin the caravan and help escort it north back to safety. After traveling 150 leagues, the caravan is found. On the way back to Zeugma, the caravan is beset by a habboob - a sandstorm. 3 desert ogres - far more cunning than ordinary ogres and wielding magic, use the cover of the storm to attack.


10: Anti-Banditry: Antep pays tribute to Turks who abandon siege - for now. While the party was away, Jaffar organized small caravan going east, which was attacked by bandits. Jaffar wants revenge, his goods back but most importantly a magical ring that "can see ahead" and a very valuable slave. The party dispenses justice and travel to Edessa, the fallen crusaser city, which has become a camp for slave traders. On the way, the party meets Cengis the mule skinner, and Crius, a large mysterious being garding a hidden door. The slave turns out to be a Circassian beauty that is highly educated in the codes of law - a bride for the Paper Satrap.

11: A trip to Allepo: Valmaxian examines the ring and declares it to be not a divination tool but the ring of many parts, which can be used to retrieve an ancient magical item hidden beneath the Citadel of Allepo - the staff of storms! The party agrees to help. What follows is extremely eventful, with earthquakes, the staff retrieved, Joscellin II, count of Edessa, found and rescued and the woman Le-ka, resurected but put inside a golden automaton, who now claims to be the Avatar of Ishtar, Goddess of love and war.

12: Upward Mobility: Jaffar tries to become a council member on the merchant guild. Someone tries to assassinate "him" - but his servant is the true target. Templars are involved, and the assassin's guild is not happy someone is poaching on their turf. An arangement is made with the templars - but Agda the witch foresees blood - BLOOOOOOODD!!! Hassan informs party that Jaffar is still in danger. While traveling on protection detail, the party is attacked by would be assassins - but the party proves to be the anvil upon with the local assassin hammer the would be interlopers. Many dead. Jaffar wins election. Amandil dreams of bloody pyramid.

13: Delaying action: Nur Ad Din is enraged by Joscelin II's escape and decides to strike Turbesell (Joscelin's forteress) before Joscelin is ready. Zeugma decides to help covertly - the party, some assassins (Hassans, Assad and the black dwarf of zeugma!!!), an Amber mage and other sellswords (including Stephanos's group) are recruited to start gerilla campaign. Party convinces goblins to help. Enemy scouts are ambushed, bridges are torched, horses are spooked, siege engines are burned down and enemy mages are furiously murdered. Eventually, armenian relief force shows up, and Nur Ad Din withdraws.

14: Jailbreak: Egyptian Ambasador has learned that Valmaxian has left and is a follower of set - the Staff of storm is a key to release him. Blue guild forsees a key event and are troubled. Agda the witch flees the city. Party has doubt, as Set's emprisonment could be considered unjust. They return to the valley where they met Crius (who is no longer present). They do not manage to stop Valmaxian in time, and Set is released at night. He blots the moon out with his hand and declares that there are not four elements, there are five. Once the darkness disperses and the moon returns to normal, he and his servants are gone.
Thank you for sharing. This sounds a superb campaign, and speaks volumes for your abilities as both a DM and a historian.
 

Jaeger

That someone better.
I have been thinking that perhaps 4E should have changed from roll under the Characteristic to roll >= 100% i.e. Characteristic/Skill + roll must be greater than or equal to 100% for success. Then who wins becomes who rolled highest, SL is just the difference in the tens of each roll. But this would also require changes to how Advantage works.

Switching to TN 100 roll-high would make some stuff more straightforward. A move to a roll high mechanic would smooth out some of the issues roll under d100 systems do have.

Instead of making WFRP the not-BRP game, it would be the not-RoleMaster game.

And at least we'd still be using standard dice unlike 3e...


Perpetually? I disagree. 2e was a solid system, ...

Was it perfect? No.

It was serviceable - it made some design decisions I didn't agree with like making magic work differently from the core % mechanic - which 4e rightly corrected, but then did more stuff.

2e WFRP had issues, but what it needed was a "2e WFRP 2nd edition" that fixed those issues. Not a complete scrapping and clean sheet redesign.

Twice...


What I'm wondering if there are elements of 4e that are worth mining and bringing to 2e. The opposed check seems like a good one...

That seems to be the rub for me and others.

There is some useful stuff that could be ported to 2e. But all the additional complication 4e brings to the table (Literally) is not needed for them.

And it's not like it's critics haven't played the game and given it a fair shake.

2e was serviceable. In a world where the IP holder didn't jump hands every edition it would have been properly revised, and with a halfway decent playtest could have been a very good game.


When someone just launches into the bad and doesn’t recognize the good it implies bias.

I think the bias amongst 4e's detractors is obvious.

4e is overcomplicated for what it does, with no discernable reason for it at the table.

How does having 4 different meta currencies in WFRP add to the flavor of adventuring in the old world?

And the list goes on - I do not need to re-type the excellent posts from other posters here.

I just think that it is a shame that the C7 design team chose to go the way they did with 4e WFRP. For the same time and effort they could have made a more familiar and approachable game.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Thank you for sharing. This sounds a superb campaign, and speaks volumes for your abilities as both a DM and a historian.
Thank you so much! I considered publishing this in some form, but I decided against it because replacing real cultures with fantasy races is, uh, fraught with issues. I think it may be the best one I've ever run.

Also, this is the first arc of the campaign, there is a second one, if you are interested...
 

schneeland

Adventurer
I think there are a lot of benefits to an opposed roll for combat - it certainly helps with WH's whiffiness for example. But as soon as there is a benefit to the defender if the attacker misses (advantage or a counter-attack), we risk creating a system where weaker foes attacking the PCs helps the PCs, which is really bizarre if you ask me.
From PC perspective that's true, but on the other hand it does create the interesting situation that there's a risk attached to attacking. In Warlock! (where melee combat is also an opposed roll), the risk for the attacker is at least partly offset by providing a +5 bonus to their role (so for Warhammer that would be +25%) - I feel that creates reasonable incentive to attack even for weaker combatants.
 

TheSword

Legend
How does having 4 different meta currencies in WFRP add to the flavor of adventuring in the old world?
Well there aren’t four, there are really just two that can be used in different ways.

Fate/Fortune that can be used to reroll a dice or add a SL. Or in desperate circumstances burnt permanently to save your life.

Resilience/Resolve to remove a condition or psychology. Or in desperate situations burnt permanently to prevent a mutation or select a dice result.

The names just distinguish between the renewable element and the permanently burnt element. When you think about it having a different measure for being destined vs being hard as nails is perfectly reasonable particularly when it comes to dwarves. It was worth rounding out fate and resilience as the main balancing act between higher statted races.

And the list goes on - I do not need to re-type the excellent posts from other posters here.

I just think that it is a shame that the C7 design team chose to go the way they did with 4e WFRP. For the same time and effort they could have made a more familiar and approachable game.
The game is ridiculously familiar. The careers are almost all the same, as are the skills, the stats, most of the spells are familiar, equipment, psychology, monsters… all familiar. That’s one of the reasons fans of Warhammer like it so much… it’s all familiar!
 

GuyBoy

Adventurer
Thank you so much! I considered publishing this in some form, but I decided against it because replacing real cultures with fantasy races is, uh, fraught with issues. I think it may be the best one I've ever run.

Also, this is the first arc of the campaign, there is a second one, if you are interested...
I can see where the issues can could arise in terms of publishing, but your earlier post jumped out to me as this period was one of my subsidy modules at university and I found it fascinating, hence my interest in what you did. The nod to an even earlier Middle East, via the Seleucid tomb, was a neat touch.
I’d definitely be interested in the second arc, though I’m a bit worried about hijacking Rob’s thread ( aka @TheSword is my gaming buddy). I reckon he would forgive me though!
 

TheSword

Legend
From PC perspective that's true, but on the other hand it does create the interesting situation that there's a risk attached to attacking. In Warlock! (where melee combat is also an opposed roll), the risk for the attacker is at least partly offset by providing a +5 bonus to their role (so for Warhammer that would be +25%) - I feel that creates reasonable incentive to attack even for weaker combatants.
The risk is rare. You’d only take damage on one of your attacks if the enemy rolled a critical. With Melee Skill 50 that would be 4% of rolls with a standard weapon. That’s a very low risk of taking damage on one of your attacks.

There are some creatures that are so skilled (champions) that you can take damage more, along with some weapons that double the crit chance. But they aren’t ubiquitous.
 

TheSword

Legend
I can see where the issues can could arise in terms of publishing, but your earlier post jumped out to me as this period was one of my subsidy modules at university and I found it fascinating, hence my interest in what you did. The nod to an even earlier Middle East, via the Seleucid tomb, was a neat touch.
I’d definitely be interested in the second arc, though I’m a bit worried about hijacking Rob’s thread ( aka @TheSword is my gaming buddy). I reckon he would forgive me though!
Go for it. It sounds really interesting. I think this is @Ancalagon’s thread anyway! 😂 I just kitting up when I saw Zapp gunning for 4e 🙈
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I can see where the issues can could arise in terms of publishing, but your earlier post jumped out to me as this period was one of my subsidy modules at university and I found it fascinating, hence my interest in what you did. The nod to an even earlier Middle East, via the Seleucid tomb, was a neat touch.
I’d definitely be interested in the second arc, though I’m a bit worried about hijacking Rob’s thread ( aka @TheSword is my gaming buddy). I reckon he would forgive me though!
I though "oh writing this up will take 10 minute"

erm, no, it's HUGE - the party traveled along the silk road in search of Icarium, an ancient being they believe could counter Set. They reached the tarim basin, veered north and ended up killing the Lord of Death on the Severny Islands.

I'll try to have a better write up later :)
 

Jaeger

That someone better.
Well there aren’t four, there are really just two that can be used in different ways.

Nope, sorry.

Just because two of them serve as limiters, that does not make them the same. All four are spent differently, and are gained back differently. Complete with four different places to note them on the character sheet.

Four is not the new two.


The careers are almost all the same, as are the skills, the stats,

A whole lot of almost going on here.

Note that I said more familiar, my context matters.

On first Blush 4e looks the business. But it is when you dive down things really start to stack up.

We really need Dexterity and initiative added in as stats? Was Agility somehow not cutting it? That had to be an odd complaint... Four meta currencies? They way combat was changed up. Each skill now having its own %, which advance in 1% increments... Really an improvement?

No thank you.

Do you know what would be more familiar? If I picked up 4e and didn't see all the additional complication added to the system for an indiscernible return at the table.

By your own admission you use 'tools' (VTT or other computer based systems) to track all the additional complications.

If you really want to know the point of view of 4e's critics - put down all the tech, and run a campaign with everyone at the table just using pen and paper.

Maybe then you'll understand why some of us are less than enthused with 4e's design choices.
 

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