Warhammer frpg - 2e vs 4e

[macd21]

Right. There is a slight difference in probability at the ends, but otherwise it works out the same.

Spoiler

Under the normal rules, if my skill is 43, the chances of different SLs is as follows:
0: 4% (40-43)
1 through 3: 10% each (30-39, 20-29, 10-19)
4: 9% (01-09)

With fast SL, the ends reverse:
0: 9% (01-09)
1 through 3 (10-19, 20-29, 30-39)
4: 4% (40-43)

As for how it plays, I have only played it once. We thought the Advantage mechanic was a bit cumbersome but figured it would work itself out once we had more experience with the system.

The one thing I thought was weird was the economy, or rather how two parts of it both individually make sense but when combined it becomes nonsensical. The first is that after each adventure, you can spend any money you made on whatever you want. But in between adventures, you normally spend all your money on repairs, living expenses, bribes, donations, whatever. There are two ways around this: Banking or earning Income. Both take one downtime unit, of which you can't have more than three in between adventures. Banking lets you save money either by investing it (not available for the lowest social classes) or just stashing it. Investing is somewhat safer, and can earn you interest, but requires you to spend another downtime unit to get your money back. On one level, I like this idea, as it keeps PCs hungry for lucrative adventuring.

Each character has a social standing, primarily defined by what sort of currency they use: Gold (merchant lords, nobles, otherwise wealthy), Silver (respectable tradesmen, professionals, common merchants), or Brass (peasants, criminals, lower-class professions). Within each, there are 5 sub-tiers (so you have Brass 1-5, Silver 1-5, and Gold 1-5). This is primarily dependent on your career, and one of the perks of advancing in your career is that you improve your status (e.g. an Engineer goes from Brass 4 to Silver 2, Silver 4, and Gold 2). Earning income gets you money based on this social standing. This is also cool, because it brings home how socially stratified people of the Empire are. It also carries a fair bit of the "roughness" I like about Warhammer – you start out playing ratcatchers, pit fighters, coachmen, and the like. By my count, 42 of the 64 starting careers in the rule book are brass tier. So an Income endeavour will earn them 2-10 d10 brass pennies, of which there are 12 to a silver shilling and 240 to a gold crown.

The problem is that pretty much everything that's of interest to an adventurer has prices listed in Gold Coins. Even a basic Hand Weapon costs 1 GC. A Shield costs 2 GC. A bow is 4 GC. Being fully armored in mail will set you back 6 GCs. A pistol costs 8 GC, so good luck if you're a starting Engineer (Brass 4) who wants to get some use out of your Ranged (Blackpowder) skill....

Well yeah, that’s why they go adventuring!

 

[Ancalagon]

Do you mean if characters bought a Skill multiple times in 2E?

Yes.

Take a skill that anyone can do (not "trained only") like say Perception. In warhammer, perception is a skill liked to intelligence.

If you are untrained in perception, you do a check at half your int value (so if your int is 38, your skill is 19)
If you have taken the skill once, you do a check at your full int value. If you have taken it twice, you do it at +10, and if you have taken it 3 times (the max), you can do it at +20. You cannot take it a 4rth time to get +30.

Beyond that, the only way to improve your perception check is to improve your intelligence, or a few talents that could help a bit.

But the wiffiness of warhammer can be significantly reduced if most of the checks are opposed checks. If your perception is 19 (not good), but the bandit trying to sneak past you has a stealth of 22... it's almost a 50/50 chance.

 

[Ancalagon]

The problem is that pretty much everything that's of interest to an adventurer has prices listed in Gold Coins. Even a basic Hand Weapon costs 1 GC. A Shield costs 2 GC. A bow is 4 GC. Being fully armored in mail will set you back 6 GCs. A pistol costs 8 GC, so good luck if you're a starting Engineer (Brass 4) who wants to get some use out of your Ranged (Blackpowder) skill....

blink

In 2nd ed, a pistol cost 200 gold, and a full suit of chain mail costs 170! (and would probably take you several adventures to be able to afford).

 

[Ancalagon]

In 4e:

1. Attacker rolls, trying to get under Melee skill (+/- relevant modifiers) and determines SL by comparing the tens dice to Melee skill (so roll 15 against Melee skill 42 = SL 3). If the attacker rolls a double he will inflict a crit (if under Melee skill) or suffer a fumble (if over), in addition to any other outcome of the attack.
2. Defender does the same, but can choose to roll against Dodge instead of Melee. If he rolls against Melee, then doubles can also cause crits or fumbles.
3. Compare SLs. If the attacker has higher, he hits and gains 1 advantage. If the defender has higher the attack misses and the defender gains 1 advantage. The loser loses all advantage.

So an example: Bob (melee 44) charges Tim (melee 35). Because he charged, Bob gains one advantage, so he’s rolling against 54. He rolls a 41, so he gets 1 SL. Tim rolls a 11, so he’ll inflict a crit and gets 2 SL. Bob loses the exchange, and now has no advantage, while Tim has 1.

Tim then strikes back. Because he has advantage he’s rolling against 45, but gets 55. That’s -1 SL, and a fumble. But Bob rolls a 80, which is -4 SL. Because Bob’s SL is worse than Tim’s, Tim still hits.

The exchange might be described like this: Bob charges forward, stabbing carefully at Tim, but Tim parries his thrust and deftly slices at his leg, cutting him deeply (the crit). As Bob stumbles, his momentum lost, Tim strikes back. It’s a clumsy blow, but it gets past Bob’s flailing parry - but not without cost, as Tim’s sword slips from his grip (the fumble). Bob is now badly hurt and off balance, but Tim is unarmed…

Two questions

1: If attacker has a weapon sill of 45, and rolls 47... that's a miss... but does it become a hit if the defender rolls worse? Say the defender has a WS of 37 and they roll 72...

2: You haven't talked about the damage at all...

 

[Crusadius]

Two questions

1: If attacker has a weapon sill of 45, and rolls 47... that's a miss... but does it become a hit if the defender rolls worse? Say the defender has a WS of 37 and they roll 72...

2: You haven't talked about the damage at all...

The answer to #1 is... yes. You compare Success Levels to determine who wins. So if the Attacker fails their Melee Skill roll and gets -1SL, but the defender fails their defense roll and gets -2SL, the Attacker hits.

 

[Crusadius]

Yes.

Take a skill that anyone can do (not "trained only") like say Perception. In warhammer, perception is a skill liked to intelligence.

If you are untrained in perception, you do a check at half your int value (so if your int is 38, your skill is 19)
If you have taken the skill once, you do a check at your full int value. If you have taken it twice, you do it at +10, and if you have taken it 3 times (the max), you can do it at +20. You cannot take it a 4rth time to get +30.

Beyond that, the only way to improve your perception check is to improve your intelligence, or a few talents that could help a bit.

But the wiffiness of warhammer can be significantly reduced if most of the checks are opposed checks. If your perception is 19 (not good), but the bandit trying to sneak past you has a stealth of 22... it's almost a 50/50 chance.

There is a limit of how many additional Advances you can take in a single skill in 2E (i.e. Skill Mastery) - I think its 2 (you can buy the same skill a total of 3 times) meaning a maximum of +20%. 4E does not cap the number of advances for Characteristics and Skills other than the XP cost becoming prohibitively expensive.

But 4E also has the concept of Basic and Advanced Skills - Advanced Skills cannot be used without at least one Advance which has the weird result of only needing to spend 10XP to get 1% in an Advanced Skill to allow you to roll (roll poorly for the most part unless the linked Characteristic is very high).

4E removes whiffiness for opposed tests by having the comparison between Success Levels and the winner is the one with the highest SL.

 

[Ancalagon]

4E removes whiffiness for opposed tests by having the comparison between Success Levels and the winner is the one with the highest SL.

so then why is there a need for the advantage mechanic (the "momentum")?

Incidentally, Troika! has an "opposed check" system for combat, and whoever wins the check injures the other. So if you attack an orc, and they win the check, you get hurt. I can report that it substantively speeds up combat.

 

[Crusadius]

so then why is there a need for the advantage mechanic (the "momentum")?

Incidentally, Troika! has an "opposed check" system for combat, and whoever wins the check injures the other. So if you attack an orc, and they win the check, you get hurt. I can report that it substantively speeds up combat.

I think its to simulate the idea that someone who is winning each Combat Test has an advantage if they keep winning.

Advantage is also used to power Creature Traits such as the Breath of a Dragon.

 

[Staffan]

I think its to simulate the idea that someone who is winning each Combat Test has an advantage if they keep winning.

Advantage is also used to power Creature Traits such as the Breath of a Dragon.

We also found that advantage was how you got damage in. 4e doesn't have a damage roll, instead you use the net SL from the opposed attack test (so if I rolled SL 3 and you got SL 1 on your defense, that's a total SL of 2 in my favor). The image I get in my head is that two evenly matched foes will spend quite some time making semi-effectual pokes at one another, but if someone starts getting ahead they will be able to go for more and more decisive blows because of built-up Advantage.

 

[aramis erak]

@Jaeger in another thread you said:



Can you elaborate on this? What is fast SL?

SL= Success Level

ah, so SL is "success levels". So under normal SL rules, you want to roll as low as possible. If your Skill is 43, rolling 01 is the best. Under fast SL, the best roll would be 42 (43?), so you want to roll as high as possible without going over your skill. Did I get that right?

Yep.

Note that Fast SL alters the odds of SL=0 up, and max SL down.