Warlock and Sorcerer

[Zustiur]

I would like to see the sorcerer get their own spells instead of sharing 100% with the wizard.

And my first step in separating them would be to remove 'named' spells like Melf's Acid Arrow from the Sorcerers' list. Those sorts of spells should belong to wizards alone.
[MENTION=17077]Falling Icicle[/MENTION] I completely get where you're coming from and agree that having to continually negotiate with your patron is a divine thing, not a warlock thing. However, can you please provide a fluff explanation for encounter based warlock powers? I'm drawing a blank right now, but I know a satisfactory explanation must exist.

 

[variant]

I am of the opinion that most of the wizard spell list should be exclusive to the wizard and the sorcerer should have a narrower spell list. The wizard is highly dependent on their spells while the sorcerer is less so. Plus, it also allows for an easier job at balancing the sorcerer with their spell points. Some crossover could exist, but the spell lists should look as different between the two as the spell lists between the cleric and wizard.

It should be the same way with the bard and druid as well.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I agree that the sorcerer should have its own spell list. I've wanted that since 3.0. I also think it's important that sorcerers don't just have a trimmed down version of the wizard spell list. There should be some things sorcerers can do that wizards can't. I can see them having some nature spells in their list, for example. A few spells from the druid list that draw upon the raw forces of nature, like entangle, could fit some sorcerer concepts.

 

[Falling Icicle]

[MENTION=17077]Falling Icicle[/MENTION] I completely get where you're coming from and agree that having to continually negotiate with your patron is a divine thing, not a warlock thing. However, can you please provide a fluff explanation for encounter based warlock powers? I'm drawing a blank right now, but I know a satisfactory explanation must exist.

The warlock is channeling otherworldly, alien and unnatural forces when he uses invocations. Perhaps using those powers is spiritually taxing, requiring a short period of rest to recover. Instead of being called favors, perhaps this resource is called Eldritch Essence, which represents how much spiritual energy a warlock can invoke before needing to rest.

That's the best I could come up with for now.

 

[On Puget Sound]

perhaps the short ritual is not to beg for power,but to steal more of it. Or maybe the power is always there, but the ritual is to hide the etheric traces of its use so the patron doesn't learn that you're still alive and still using it.

As with just about everything, you can change the fluff to suit your character concept if you want a warlock that doesn't do things the way most warlocks do.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I dont mind the rites to ask fir favors, and maybe a sidebar with a spawn/ghost rider take this curse and make it my own reflavor.

 

[Bow_Seat]

I am of the opinion that most of the wizard spell list should be exclusive to the wizard and the sorcerer should have a narrower spell list. The wizard is highly dependent on their spells while the sorcerer is less so. Plus, it also allows for an easier job at balancing the sorcerer with their spell points. Some crossover could exist, but the spell lists should look as different between the two as the spell lists between the cleric and wizard.

It should be the same way with the bard and druid as well.

I definitely agree that the sorcerer should have a separate spell list, but I think that it could look more like the bard spell list vs. the wizard spell list from 3.x

I don't want to imply that sorcerers should deal only with obfuscation, trickery, and irresistible dancing, but rather that there can be overlap. If you look at a wizard list vs a bard list in 3.x it's very easy to tell what you're looking at.

Plus, honestly, I think that it takes a LOT of work to balance all the potential combinations of spells in the game. So having just a bit of overlap means that you have to deal with less total combinations.

Edit: I thought of a better example. Comparing the Wizard spell list to the Assassin spell list. Both technically cast arcane spells. Both had overlap in the list, but neither list looked anything like the other.

TL;DR: So long as they create a sense of independence and unique class flavor, minor overlaps don't matter.

 

[Yora]

I think this could be a good starting point for sorcerer spell lists:

Since it's a more natural way to use arcane magic, I think spells should not be as refined and a bit more blunt, but also more versatile. There's no need for hologram-like illusions and text-based runes, that stuff is for wizards. Sorcerers are for quick and dirty on the fly solutions, like making roofs collapse, errecting a wall of ice that will melt in a couple of minutes and is not particularly hard to shatter, and stuff like that.

 

[The Shadow]

Since it's a more natural way to use arcane magic, I think spells should not be as refined and a bit more blunt, but also more versatile. There's no need for hologram-like illusions and text-based runes, that stuff is for wizards. Sorcerers are for quick and dirty on the fly solutions, like making roofs collapse, errecting a wall of ice that will melt in a couple of minutes and is not particularly hard to shatter, and stuff like that.

I get where you're coming from, but I'm not sure I agree about illusions. I could totally see a fey-bloodline sorcerer using glamours and the like. Runes I do agree with, along with anything with a name on it.

It's probably asking too much for the spell list to vary between bloodlines, I suppose. At most a bloodline could add a couple signature spells.

EDIT:

Ghost Rider and Spawn. It's a classic trope to betray the evil patron that grants you power. There may be downsides to it, but that just makes for a better story.

Is it? Can you think of any examples prior to the twentieth century?

 

[variant]

Plus, honestly, I think that it takes a LOT of work to balance all the potential combinations of spells in the game. So having just a bit of overlap means that you have to deal with less total combinations.

I think it would take more effort to balance spells to be used across multiple completely different classes. A sorcerer, for example, has a spell point system which is by far completely different than the wizard's dailies.

It's probably asking too much for the spell list to vary between bloodlines, I suppose. At most a bloodline could add a couple signature spells.

I don't think it's too much if you have a set spell progression for each bloodline. Basically the sorcerer wouldn't really get to choose or change their spell list.