D&D 5E Warlock, Hex, and Short Rests: The Bag of Rats Problem

[Flamestrike]

Again, I fail to see why long durations imply that you can rest. Resting isn't required, and those durations are useful without rests. This point is a push for me -- it doesn't imply anything at all.

What implies you can rest is that there's no activity in resting that indicates it would be more stressful that the things listed that you can maintain concentration doing. No one's arguing you can't lounge about for an hour without breaking concentration. Again, the argument there is from the other side -- you can't gain the benefits of rests while concentrating.

But there is nothing in rules at indicate you cant get the benefits of a short rest while concentrating.

And the guys that wrote the rules have (repeatedly) stated that the intent is that you can short rest and maintain concentration on a spell.

I mean if your Warlock is casting a spell then immediately short resting that a totally different problem. You're not policing the adventuring day and/or your Warlock player is gaming the system.

Time limit your quests, and this problem goes away. Or use 'random' monsters for players who try and game the rest system.

 

[Undrhil]

In fact, if Concentrating during a short rest was a problem, the Warlock Hex spell would neuter the Warlock once they get to the point where the spell is Concentration, 8 hours, since that would mean the Warlock would not be able to take a short rest *or* would lose the benefit of that casting of Hex.

 

[seebs]

The part where you say that there can't be anything else that breaks concentration or it's 'contrary to RAW' is also an interpretation that may be contrary to RAW. RAW isn't clear, and implies there are 'things' that can break concentration.

If you cannot quote explicit text which states directly that there are other things that break concentration, other than the list or the other factors mentioned in the paragraph below, then no, it can't be contrary to RAW. It's only contrary to RAW if the rules actually state the thing you're contradicting.

But, again, my point isn't that sitting around for a hour breaks concentration - that seems well called. It's that you may not be able to rest while concentrating, an area far more open to interpretation.

Okay, that's a completely different claim.

Please don't try to pin the 'standing around for a hour breaks concentration'. I don't think anyone's actually advancing that.

All the arguments about whether or not the list is complete are absolutely exclusive to that. They're unrelated to the completely different claim that concentration prevents resting.

Conentration doesn't seem to me to be "more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds." After all, you can cast other spells while concentrating, as long as they don't also need concentration.

EDIT: To clarify, there's two directions here -- from what breaks concentration, and from what you're allowed to do to rest. I agree that the activity of resting shouldn't break concentration. This seems clear and well within what the RAW indicates. But the 2nd direction, what can you do while resting, isn't clear, and here there exist significant uncertainty that can include a DM saying 'sure, it doesn't break your concentration, but you don't get the benefits of a rest while concentrating." This is where my 'maintaining a resource' ruling comes in, where I try to split the divide between the allowed by RAW recovery and the allowed by RAW denial of recovery. Oddly, this means, as you note, that I'm contrary to RAW, because RAW doesn't have a mechanic for partial recovery. Guilty.

I was specifically arguing that "resting breaks concentration" is contrary to RAW. "Resting is prevented by concentration" strikes me as neither specified by nor contrary to RAW.

But we do have something of a data point from the long rest rules: An interruption of "at least one hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity" breaks a long rest. Implicitly, an interruption of, say, ten minutes of casting spells does not interrupt a long rest. Which seems like it would at least tentatively imply that you can do things comparable in difficulty to maintaining concentration for a while without interrupting a long rest.

But I think short rest may actually imply stricter requirements -- you don't get the "or standing watch, or fights but only if they're short" exception.

 

[seebs]

Absolutely. If you said, "The following browsers and programs can view your web page source code:"

And then listed 4 things, the only thing that would indicate that it isn't a total list is the knowledge that it isn't.

Yes. On the other hand, if you were defining a thing, and said "these are the things that can prevent that", in the context of a rule, it's more reasonable to assume that the rule's intended to be complete, because that's how rules tend to be.

 

[abirdcall]

I mean if your Warlock is casting a spell then immediately short resting that a totally different problem. You're not policing the adventuring day and/or your Warlock player is gaming the system.

This one is actually against RAW. You can't short rest at the beginning of the adventuring day.

 

[Arial Black]

The word 'can', in the context of 'This is the list of things that can break concentration', means 'is/are able to'.

So when it says "The following factors can break concentration:" it means "The following factors are able to break concentration:"

These are the rules for breaking concentration. They are complete. The word 'can' in no way indicates that this is a partial list! That word does not have that meaning!

A short rest definitely does not break concentration, RAW, because RAW tells us exactly what can break concentration (the purpose of that section is to tell us exactly what breaks it) and anything not on that list therefore can not.

As to the other way-can you benefit from a short rest while concentrating on a spell-is not specified. However, in order for concentrating on a spell to prevent you benefiting from a short rest then you must interpret 'concentrating on a spell' as a type of 'stressful activity'. Everything ever written in the 5E ruleset regarding concentration implies that concentrating on a spell is not stressful in any way. Nothing suggests it is stressful. Although a DM can rule what he wants at his table it seems against reason to interpret concentration as stressful, given what we know the 5E rules allow you to do without losing concentration on a spell.

 

[Barolo]

Always the "can" word, opening cans of worms.

 

[Ovinomancer]

In fact, if Concentrating during a short rest was a problem, the Warlock Hex spell would neuter the Warlock once they get to the point where the spell is Concentration, 8 hours, since that would mean the Warlock would not be able to take a short rest *or* would lose the benefit of that casting of Hex.

You mean that the Warlock casts a spell, gets the benefit of that spell, then rests and loses that casting but gets the slot back so he can do it again, and this neuters the warlock? Not seeing it.

 

[Ovinomancer]

But there is nothing in rules at indicate you cant get the benefits of a short rest while concentrating.

We differ on this.

And the guys that wrote the rules have (repeatedly) stated that the intent is that you can short rest and maintain concentration on a spell.

I prefer to ignore that as it implies bad gane design. Why hide an intended benefit (regaining a spell slot while maintaining concentration on a spell cast with that slot) for essentially only one class by gating it behind a metagaming concept?

I mean if your Warlock is casting a spell then immediately short resting that a totally different problem. You're not policing the adventuring day and/or your Warlock player is gaming the system.

Time limit your quests, and this problem goes away. Or use 'random' monsters for players who try and game the rest system.

If it's RAW and intended, why are you changing hiw you run your game to solve the problem it creates? Remove the problem to begin with and you don't need to find ethereal mummies.

 

[Flamestrike]

We differ on this.

I prefer to ignore that as it implies bad gane design. Why hide an intended benefit (regaining a spell slot while maintaining concentration on a spell cast with that slot) for essentially only one class by gating it behind a metagaming concept?

If it's RAW and intended, why are you changing hiw you run your game to solve the problem it creates? Remove the problem to begin with and you don't need to find ethereal mummies.

I get that we differ, but you're wrong. I mean you can rule differently if you want but the rules are clear that you can short rest and concentrate simultaneously. Nothing in the RAW contradicts it and the RAI is clearly the opposite.

This isn't debatable. It's like arguing swords don't deal 1d8 damage.

As to your final point it's equally wrong. The DM has the responsibility to police rests (and the adventuring day). Explicitly you're supposed to get around 2-3 short rests per long rest. Your long rest resources are supposed to last you through 6-8 medium to hard encounters.

Again, you can choose not to enforce this, but that's a decision relating to the policing of rests and the adventuring day in and of itself.

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