D&D 5E Warlock in party with Quasit breaking story

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Also, I would say that, from the player perspective, the fun-factor of suspense/unpleasent-surprise tends to be overrated by the DM. Not saying there isn't a place for it at all, just overrated.

Completely agree. I think it also helps to look at the scouting as a great opportunity to telegraph the threats. Knowing something nasty awaits in the dungeon ahead of time, for example, actually increases the suspense in my experience.
 

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DemonSlayer

Explorer
Limit the access where he can safely reach; doors/windows it can't get through, guard dogs, traps

Hide stuff from it: secret doors, illusionary walls, hidden assassins. Or obscure it's vision with fog, smoke, or magical darkness.
 

akr71

Hero
If it was just a fly over I would be fine. Problem is the warlock knows he can do more and starts entering every single room (locked or not) and scouting. All possible surprises, ambushes or interesting plot developments get revealed. I get your character's thinking and I think it's adequate but our party is very pragmatic and doesn't do anything like that. They just sit around and wait for as much information as possible. It honestly gets boring at a point but they go on.

I can do the wandering monster move but if it happens way too often (and they use that quasit every single time) it just starts looking unnatural and forced. Making it roll investigation/Perception is a good idea.

I don't want to penalize the warlock. On the contrary - I want to not limit his ability and find a way to keep the story going. Problem is the story gets more predictable and boring because of this ability. Basically he makes the campaign worse for both himself and everyone else in a completely legal way. That's what I want to stop.

I would still maintain that a creature with Int 7 and Wis 10 is not the best scout. Make the warlock roll Investigation and Perception checks using the Quasit's ability scores and only let the players now information according to the roll. Better yet, you roll for the quasit and do not tell them the results of the roll. If they do not know the results of the skill check, they won't know how reliable the information is. Missing traps or not observing that there is another entrance to the room could definitely change the course of the session.

Put doors that the quasit cannot get through - either they are barred from the other side with no way for its centipede form to squeeze through, concealed and/or secret (again requiring skill checks), etc.

Plus as others have stated, invisible in not undetectable - some creatures have sharp noses and ears and they may clue in to something wandering around spying on them. They may move about and make counter plans against your party.

Just because the players are using their heads doesn't mean you need to hand over all your session notes. Heck, it could even be foggy and the little critter loses its way when scouting ahead.
 

hastur_nz

First Post
This is a classic DM problem, not just for people who are somewhat new to being a DM, but one I've seen from an old-timer once, too.

Basically, it's not the DM's job to "force fun upon the players". In fact, if you go too far down that road, you will probably force the campaign to end prematurely.

From what I've read, you can:
* Tighten up on exactly what the PC's abilities really can and can't do, which will turn an "auto win" stealth button, to something more realistic. That's definitely worth doing, and I think it's all outlined already.
* definitely work on making sure that the game doesn't slow down to the point where only one player and the DM are involved - just don't let all the "stealth mission" part get bogged down in detail, simply ask the player their basic mode of operation, maybe ask for a roll or two if you think it's required for success vs failure, then narrate the outcome(s). Don't force the other players to wait endlessly for anything to do. Unless they somehow enjoy that part.
* make sure that the information gained from scouting is helpful, but not "auto win". For example, exact numbers may vary; monsters move around; if the stealth failed there are consequences; etc. Let the player benefit from their choices, but make sure it can still lead to interesting outcomes.

The key point, for any DM and especially a new one, is to:
1) know the rules, and apply them fairly
2) don't screw your players out of legitimate choices that the table finds fun

As DM, it's your job to help facilitate a fun group experience, and part of your fun needs to come out of all the players having fun. Try not to fall into the trap of thinking "Bob is ruining my plots!" - instead, try and think, "Bob's doing a good job of figuring out part of the plot, let's see how I can work with that and make sure that leads to even more fun". In other words, take it as a challenge to become a better DM. As noted by others, the 'problem' you are having with a PC who can scout really well, will only get more pronounced as you run higher level PC's with increasing "I win" spell choices. Let the players have their fun, make sure you don't turn it into an arms race, but work on ways to make sure that the outcomes of their efforts are rewarded but can also lead to interesting and fun outcomes.
 

Since the story is all about what the PCs are doing, nothing can break it, ever.

There may be game balance concerns for certain class powers, particularly at low level but that is another matter.
 

patwil

First Post
Some other options for periodic problems with scouting - try an alarm spell on the entrances. Also place illusion on certain doors for important areas that the quasit might or might not see open.

Or the classic "a terrible beast is roaming the countryside that lives in the old cave up the mountain. When they send the Quasit to explore he enters the cave only to discover it is actually the throat of an ancient dragon".

Good times


Sent from my iPad using EN World
 

Volund

Explorer
Scouting is one of the main things PotC warlocks get to do, so let him do it, but there are ways to make success less automatic than you are describing. Others have already talked about Stealth vs. Perception contests. Here are some other ways to add uncertainty.

4. Oh no it's been detected. Warlock can just instantly recall it.

He can't instantly recall it. The spell states that "As an action, you can temporarily dismiss your familiar." Whenever you have opposing sides competing to take an action first, you should have an initiative roll. The warlock shouldn't automatically get to complete his action first.

Also, there are two interpretations of Voice of the Chain Master. One interpretation, and I would subscribe to this one, is that the invocation expands the range of telepathic communication and perceiving with the familiar's senses from 100 feet (fourth paragraph of the Find Familiar spell) to the same plane of existence, but leaves the rest of that paragraph intact, including the part about being deaf and blind while perceiving through the familiar's senses. The other interpretation is that VotCM removes both the 100 foot limitation and the deaf and blind restriction. You didn't say how you were treating this but I wouldn't let the warlock fight, use skills, cast spells, etc while scouting with his quasit.

Hiding in plain sight: Another suggestion would be to populate your locations with monsters that are difficult to identify as dangerous if they aren't moving. Undead, constructs, and oozes are all good for this. Monsters that use camouflage, like cloakers, piercers, mimics and a lot of elementals will also be tricky. The quasit can see the fountain of water in the courtyard but won't be able to see the water weird in it. Put a mimic in the quasit's path. Either the quasit gets too close and the mimic attacks it, or the warlock tells the party he found an unguarded whatever and somebody else gets attacked by it later.

Blindsight: Even something as simple as giant spiders could pose a challenge to the quasit scout. They're stealthy, and have blindsight and a ranged web attack. A swarm of bats or giant wolf spiders would also work. These monsters could be fairly common in unpopulated areas.

Finally, I wouldn't let the time spent perceiving through the familiar's senses count towards a short rest for the warlock to regain spell slots or use hit dice. You didn't say that you were, but I thought I'd mention it.

As others have said, your player is in your game instead of other things they could be doing and wants to have fun with his character. He chose his pact in order to be an awesome scout for his party. More often than not, let him be awesome. But every once in awhile throw him a curve ball so that the outcome is not always certain. Yes, a random monster could walk up on the party but don't do that too often or it will seem forced. Look at his skill list and think of situations where the party would rather him be present and using a skill instead of scouting. Maybe he's the party face and they need him to nail a deception of persuasion check with an intelligent monster or NPC. Maybe there is a threat flying overhead and the party needs to hide under cover and make a group stealth check, but his roll is at disadvantage because he can't see or hear what he is doing. Maybe he is attuned to a magic item that the party would need him to use to avoid a dangerous situation. Even if these things happen rarely, your players will remember them and there will always be an added element of tension during the scouting trips and that should elevate the fun for everyone in the long run.
 

GX.Sigma

Adventurer
First of all, I'd like to reiterate what a few posters have already said: hidden information is overrated. Also, exposition can often be underrated. Stories are more interesting if the audience knows what's going on.

As for what I'd do as the DM in this situation: I'd let the player have his super-scout, and write my adventures around it. Don't try to "fix" it. Use it as a resource. Make it do your work for you.

The first scene of the adventure basically writes itself. I don't have to come up with a creative original idea, I can start by just answering the question, "what happens when they send the quasit in?" I could come up with an answer like "the quasit easily scouts out the area," and then the players have more information to plan their attack. So I could give them a few options (the front gate is locked but the quasit can steal the key; there's a secret tunnel in the back guarded by a deaf ogre; there's a door that can only be opened by a class you don't have in your party; etc.). So now I'm thinking of it like an Ocean's 11-style heist caper, and I can take inspiration from that whole genre of movies and video games.

Or maybe the answer is "the quasit gets toasted by the dragon," and now the players (and I) know there's a dragon. As long as you start out with a different answer to that question, you'll have a unique seed for your story. It actually makes it easier, not harder. Restrictions breed creativity.

(Also maybe ban familiars if that's not the game you want to run)
 
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Hello guys. I'm a novice DM and am running a party of 4 through a story of my own making. I'v spent quite a lot of time coming with the story and it is my focus in the campaign. I often try to create suspense, mystery, a feeling of exploration etc. All is going well except one thing: we have a warlock/sorcerer multi-class in the party with pact of the chain. He has a quasit familiar that can fly, can be used for his senses up to a mile away, is invisible and can shape change. This basically means he always knows everything in advance. Also the quasit is a slave, meaning he can't disobey. Here's an example.

1. There is a small mysterious castle in the distance. He just sends the quasit to fly over and scout everything.
2. There are guards everywhere. Quasit doesn't care: he's invisible.
3. There is a locked door. Quasit doesn't care. He transforms into a small centipede and enters through the lock.
4. Oh no it's been detected. Warlock can just instantly recall it.
5. Oh no it's killed. Warlock can have another within an hour.

Seriously? I can't create any surprises or suspense or anything when he knows everything in advance. I have 2 questions:

1. Is everything I said here valid? Can he really do everything I described?
2. If it is then can any more experienced DMs tell me how I can counter that without just saying every creature in the world has true sight because that would make zero sense.

Any help is greatly appreciated because I am feeling quite powerless to present the story I want and don't want to just say "DM rule. You can't use a Quasit. Deal with it"

1) An invisible Imp still needs to take the hide action in order to be hidden. It doesn't matter if it's invisible or not - the invisibility just allows it to be stealthy. You should be comparing the Familiars stealth check to the Guards passive perception scores.

2) The familiar is evil alignment. While the warlock has a great level of control over it, don't forget its alignment. Have it twist its orders, to lead the warlock astray. Don't let the warlock treat his familiar as just a class feature. You should run it as a non-player character run by the DM with its own agenda, albeit one that the warlock has a great level of control over.

3) It takes the warlock one hour to recall his familiar. Time limit your quests so that if the familiar dies, the warlock does not have enough time to summon it back.

4) If the warlock continually uses his familiar as a suicide or distraction beast and gets it killed all the time, have his patron step in. The familiar is a gift to the warlock from his patron. The patron could very well recall the familiar if the warlock mistreats it.

In my games I impose the loss of one level of exhaustion on the master if a Familiar dies. I find this makes warlocks and other spell casters look after their Familiars a little bit better and not use them as suicide beasts.

But otherwise remember the familiar is there to be an scouting machine. The character in your campaign is using the familiar appropriately. Don't be too heavy-handed. But on the other hand don't let one class feature totally dominate your game.
 

Mephista

Adventurer
Information gathering abilities seem to be an issue with some GMs; my best suggestion is to assume players will use it when designing stories. "Players will find out about XYZ" so work on things that aren't obvious or won't be found.

Honestly, if it wasn't a familiar, it could be a stealthed / invisible rogue, it could be someone with the Arcane Eye spell, it could be a diviner with a knack for Augury spells. There's a lot of ways to break games this way.
 

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