D&D 5E Warlocks seem pointless

[Mephista]

This thread illustrates my problem with the warlock: fewer spells and slots implies it's the "simplified" caster for newbies (which was its explicit design goal when originally introduced in 3.5) but the quirky mechanics and plethora of class choices makes building an effective warlock very tricky.

For example, eldritch blast with agonizing blast is such a potent combo and defining feature that they should just give it to all warlocks as a class ability. Ditto for hex. Pact of the blade is almost a trap; without better armor proficiency you're basically building a suicide warlock.

Stuff like that is not very noob-friendly. Which sucks because in play it's fantastic for new or casual players: "Blast away, until you see a good spell opportunity. Plus, you have an awesome backstory!"

While I agree with the whole eldritch blast and hex being a default part of the class, I'm going to point out that the warlock is meant to be a Dex-based class, not a heavy Strength based one. There's a reason that the warlock is seen as a magical-rogue type fairly often. You're supposed to be running Dex + Mage Armor just the sorcerer and wizard for your AC. That doesn't make Pact of the Blade a trap option. Really, when you get right down to it, using Hex with a rapier means you're doing as much damage than a Greatsword Fighter of equal level up until level 11. The problem, of course, being that its a Concentration effect and very likely to be dropped if you get hit.

Pact of the Blade might be considered a "trap option" past level 12, given how little support the style has past that level, but before that, its more than competative.


The warlock is quirky because its actually trying to combine both the 3e and 4e playstyles into one single class. Yes, that means that the AEDU style of play from 4e is more than possible, just like a warlord is possible with the battlemaster.

 

[Mephista]

Treat the class as an archer not a spell caster and it starts to make sense.

No, not really. People need to realize that the eldritch blaster is only one of many viable builds. Its the most obvious, especially given the 3e approach to the warlock class, but it is not the be-all-end-all of the class.

There's much more to the class than that, and trying to compare it to an alternative archer all the time only hurts.

 

[KarinsDad]

Players can ask for a short rest all they want, and it doesn't mean the DM is harming "the story" by having them be interrupted. The PCs don't dictate the actions of every other living being in the game world, and a good DM will maintain that game world in the most logical sense. PCs want to take a short rest in the middle of a dungeon? That's nice, but maybe the other dungeon inhabitants are out looking for this group of would be heroes who just invaded their home and don't remain in their rooms like some sort of computer game monster, oblivious to anything that doesn't enter it's aggro range.

TL;DR: Players can decide to try to take a short rest when they want, but they aren't entitled to a short rest whenever they want.

With Rope Trick, they kind of are entitled.

Sure, there could be some extremely weird scenario where a PC cannot cast Rope Trick and the party cannot rest, but 99% of the time, if the PC arcane spell caster wants to burn off a Rope Trick, the party does indeed gets to rest.

 

[PnPgamer]

Rope trick seems very bad, you cannot get long rest...

 

[Joe Liker]

Rope trick seems very bad, you cannot get long rest...

Good thing they were talking about short rests!

Rope trick allows you to safely take one nearly whenever and wherever you want.

 

[Sacrosanct]

With Rope Trick, they kind of are entitled.

Sure, there could be some extremely weird scenario where a PC cannot cast Rope Trick and the party cannot rest, but 99% of the time, if the PC arcane spell caster wants to burn off a Rope Trick, the party does indeed gets to rest.

While this is true, I'd call that a special scenario. I would consider that a situation where the PCs engage in an activity to prepare for their desired short rest (spending the spell slot, etc), as opposed to players assuming they will get a short rest every X encounters or when they want without having to make any effort or preparations to make it happen. I'm all about encouraging players to make an effort to get what they want and giving it to them if it works. No unreasonable request should ever be unreasonably declined.

 

[KarinsDad]

While this is true, I'd call that a special scenario. I would consider that a situation where the PCs engage in an activity to prepare for their desired short rest (spending the spell slot, etc), as opposed to players assuming they will get a short rest every X encounters or when they want without having to make any effort or preparations to make it happen. I'm all about encouraging players to make an effort to get what they want and giving it to them if it works. No unreasonable request should ever be unreasonably declined.

Yes, but the same could be said for other situations without Rope Trick. The PCs go out of their way to ensure a short rest. The only differences are the odds that the DM will interrupt that rest. If PCs take reasonable precautions in most circumstances, the odds will typically be small that they get interrupted.

As per your example of resting in the dungeon, the PCs decide to rest outside the dungeon at a cave some distance off that they've been to before.


Getting back to the poster that you were responding to, his point was that taking a short rest after a challenging encounter is not unreasonable. I tend to agree with him. For many (but not all) circumstances, if the PCs go out of their way to create a relatively safe situation for them to take a rest, a DM is being a bit of jerk if he starts throwing obstacles to that rest in their way.

For classes like Warlock who tend to rely on short rests, this goes doubly. The DM hindering one PC class with resting mechanics seems unnecessary. Sure, once in a while, but it should be the exception, not the rule.

 

[Chocolategravy]

In terms of tactics, the unlimited Eldrich Blast cantrip can’t be ignored

Tiamat totally ignores it!

 

[Mephista]

Tiamat totally ignores it!

So does the Tarrasque!

 

[aramis erak]

For comparison, in my AL table, one player is a tiefling book pact of the old ones Warlock. He's one of the top damage dealers (the rogues have him beat). The barbarian is the damage sponge, the greatsword fighter is the "Let's tie-up monsters with my excellent armor.

The warlock feels like a videogame wizard - few useful spells, but lots of damage dealing with one particular spell, over and over and over. (My party's favorite spells include Eldritch Bolt and Shatter... but the use of the tiefling's various leveled spells is usually a decisive turn.