warlord healing

[Sunseeker]

There should be non-divine healing. But I never played or experienced someone playing a Warlord to really get a feel for them. THP are interesting, but they'd have to stack to be of any real use.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Except robots golems. Yes, folks, the best way to run HP as meat (or rather, wood and metal ) is to play an all-warforged party.

You must spread XP around...

Because you and I have different preferences and assumptions and the sooner we agrre on that the sooner we can have a real discussion in good faith insteead of a game of gotch-ya.

People having different preferences and assumptions isn't a problem for me. What is is that to me your preferences and assumptions make no sense. What you say you want and what you prefer are almost literally opposites from where I stand. A hit point mechanic is purely cinematic. It' s not about characters being tougher, it's about them being unimpeded. It's a "Walk out of a burning building with merely cosmetic damage as it explodes behind you" mechanic. It's at least as cinematic as full-scale wire-fu would be.

You can say what you want. And you can say what suits you. If they match, fair enough. If what you want is D&D to feel like classic D&D then I wouldn't bother disagreeing with you. I don't have that preference but I have no objection to it. Likewise if you were advocating the abolition of hit points for wound points that impair you, and for D&D to turn point-buy (I'm a fan of GURPS). The reason I'm trying to work out what you mean is because what you say you want appears to me to be a long way away from what you say suits you.

I still like having characters be tougher an they would in reality. It isn't like there are only two choices: gritty realism or cinematic action. Hit points still allow for non cinematic style narrationl 10 HP of damage isn't neccesarily ging to be a direct blow to the head from an orc's axe to a high level fighter (though it may be to a low level fighter). I see HP as reflecting elements of real physical damage and other things, just not to the degree that 4e takes it.

The problem here comes with maximum damage and critical hits. And falling. And... What the orc is doing with his axe hasn't changed. It is quite literally the best the orc can do. Which means there is no physical way it is possible for the orc to drop the fighter in a hit with a dirty great axe. Now either that's incredibly good armour (gothic plate vs dark age weapons would do that) or once again it's incredibly cinematic and the hero isn't going to get taken down by being cut open by a strong goon with an axe because of plot protection.

 

[Shadeydm]

I think from a mechanical standpoint they are something you want to limit in the gamr. Once in a while (such as with a barbarian's rage which i want to keep a special case) i can see them being a good thing. But I have concerns about having to deal with all classes potentially getting them from a warlord (as a gm i find that stuff a pain to keep tabs on and as a player I really don't want to track temp Hp all that much). I also think temp Hp dont make a lot of sense coming from a warlord's battle cry. I could certainly accept them more than his healing pep talk, but i would still prefer they stick with something like a damage bonus or wven an ac bonus (this just makes more sense to me than actually bestowing hp to a character).

Yes I can certainly see how tracking a side bar of temp hp would be undesireable for some I would push the job of tracking them onto to the player personally. I like your alternative abilities. I could envision a warlord potentially having the choice of all three things temp hp, ac boost or atk power boost. I could also envision the ac boost or atk power boost being a stance/aura to adjacent allies or allies within a certain distance. I think it would make for a fun class to play.

 

[Guest 85555]

Nonchameleon, when you are ready to have a good faith discussion, we can make headway. But of you are going to insiste my preferences make no sense because I don't accept your assumptions about HP and what style they achieve we will get no where. I also reiterate my point that you are essentially presenting a false choice.

What i object to is you sayingi have to be in either the cinematic or gritty reaism camp, and according to you, if I like HP I cannot then reject the warlord giving temp HP on the grounds it is too cinematic. This seems like way too binary an approach. It can also be a matter of degree. If you are going to insist Hp are cinematic, and I by no means accept this, then maybe I am okay with it in this one istance but don't want an overabundance of it elsewhere in the game (through things like the warlord giving temp hp). This is is exaclty why we are constantly ed warring here. These sorts of debates where people insist their interpretation of a mechanic be accepted by the other side (i.e. HP are always cinematic in nature) and then using those labels and assumptions to tell people their posititons and preferences are inconsistent is just semantic shifting. When you tell me you like HS because of X, i accept it and don't look for a way to turn your stated preference against you....because I could do that all day if I chose to. It wouldn't change your preference. It wouldn't illuminate the debate. But I could challenge you at every step by trying to sieze semantic ground and questioning your reasons for everything.

Not trying to go on a tangent here. I have really made an effort to assume good faith. But at this point the pattern is so clear. It is the same rhetorical tactic over and over again.

 

[Ahnehnois]

the cleric?

At least there's a basis in D&D for that. There are plenty of D&D-isms like that, of which the thread topic is not one.

 

[Guest 85555]

Yes I can certainly see how tracking a side bar of temp hp would be undesireable for some I would push the job of tracking them onto to the player personally. I like your alternative abilities. I could envision a warlord potentially having the choice of all three things temp hp, ac boost or atk power boost. I could also envision the ac boost or atk power boost being a stance/aura to adjacent allies or allies within a certain distance. I think it would make for a fun class to play.

Much of this is cool with me. The temp hp still kind of irk me (partly for mechanical reason andpartly for flavor). I just see too many "pick it up soldier and move" kind of scenes cropping up in my games (it would almost have to if it is embedded in the mechanics). I should clarify something here, while i am fine with some mechanics that fall short of reality (so long as they dont contradict what i am trying to do in games) mechanics designed to replicate scripted events in films bother me a bit. At the table i am not interested in repeating or echoing classic dialogue or events from saving private ryan, gladiator, etc. I do sometimes want a bit of their flavor, but i do not want a movie simulator. Hope this makes sense. I do realize sme people (many on my side of the healing debate) want a fully cinematic experience. That just isn't what i want from D&D.

 

[herrozerro]

At least there's a basis in D&D for that. There are plenty of D&D-isms like that, of which the thread topic is not one.

and yet, i consider the warlord to be one of the new classics. one of the best contributions of 4e.

 

[I'm A Banana]

There are good ideas in the thread.

I think on the broad issues, the idea of healing being necessarily tied to class is probably something 5e is going to get rid of. Like the Leader Theme mentioned upthread, and possibly combo'd with the ability of any character to make a Heal check if they want to restore some HP on themselves or an ally in combat, you do away with the need for a certain class or role dedicated to healing and buffing, and you open up a world where any PC can do a sort of baseline healing.

So there's non-cleric healing. And non-magical healing. Without warlords. Every party has enough healing to get by without any special class for it.

So if the main appeal of the warlord to you is the mechanic of nonmagical/noncleric healing, consider that need met.

Now, as to the specific mechanics of being "shouted back to life," I think temp HP easily represent the idea of giving you a little bit of extra vigor without actually removing your injuries. You can ignore them for a bit, and soldier on, but after the adrenaline wears off, you've still got your wounds.

 

[Guest 85555]

There are good ideas in the thread.

I think on the broad issues, the idea of healing being necessarily tied to class is probably something 5e is going to get rid of. Like the Leader Theme mentioned upthread, and possibly combo'd with the ability of any character to make a Heal check if they want to restore some HP on themselves or an ally in combat, you do away with the need for a certain class or role dedicated to healing and buffing, and you open up a world where any PC can do a sort of baseline healing.
.

You could be right, i don't know what 5e will look like in its final form, but based on what they have said so far I don't really see this. Unless I missed something it looks like they intend to make the cleric the definitive healer and most likely they understand how much of an issue heaing surges and second wind were to folks. If anything it looks like a return to traditional healing with some options for 4e style healing (with the wild card being the warlord who seems to be in the core). again I could be way off, but this has been my interpretation of statements by wotc.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

A hit point mechanic is purely cinematic. It' s not about characters being tougher, it's about them being unimpeded. It's a "Walk out of a burning building with merely cosmetic damage as it explodes behind you" mechanic.

No. It's not. It's Kirk Gibson limping up to the plate on two crippled legs and hitting a game winning homerun in spite of his wounds. He IS impeded, he just sucks it up and continues moving forward.