Warlord - punished for sacraficing

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On the former, that is the basis of this entire debate run in the thread.

The "former" was intent, and it doesn't seem like most of this thread is about intent.

I see it as rules monkeys trying to cheat the system. Others (including you)see it as the r0xx0rs strategy.

I never described anything as r0xx0rs strategy. I just think that is how it is written, that is how it works, I think it was intended to work that way, I do not think it is unbalancing, and I think it makes sense to reward people for cooperating.

On the latter, you would be wrong. I have stated repeatedly why I rule the way I have. It's consistent and concise.

I said you don't like it. You don't like it. So how am I wrong?

Another question: What would I (or others) have to gain by "cheating the PCs"?

I didn't accuse you of trying to cheat anyone. I just think you don't like this interpretation for your own reasons, and are therefore trying to come up with some rules justification for your dislike.

I'm a PC about half the time I play. D&D isn't about "winning", it's about "surviving" and having fun. Maybe too many have lost sight of that concept and want it to be about "winning". When I'm a PC and I "live", that's a "win". As a DM, if everyone had fun and maybe beaten to a pulp, that's also a "win". My DM goal is never to kill a character, but to make them fear it could easily happen.

A lot of people feel that part of having fun and surviving is running the rules as they are written, and rewarding people for playing their character (including their powers) to the party's benefit, and working together. This combination of powers and actions is all about cooperation between two or more players, utilizing synergy to make the combined effort better than individual effort. To me, team cooperation was always part of the fun in D&D, and this example demonstrates the power of that cooperation well.
 

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And I wouldn't throw too many stones there Herschel. Especially after you just threw out this one against those of us that disagree with you.

Antagonist does not have to be a negative term from a personality standpoint. Grab a dictionary if it helps. It is the opposite of protagonist. "Rules Monkey" doesn't either, just like geek. You're interpreting them as such because you disagree with me.
 

I said you don't like it. You don't like it. So how am I wrong?

I didn't accuse you of trying to cheat anyone. I just think you don't like this interpretation for your own reasons, and are therefore trying to come up with some rules justification for your dislike.

A lot of people feel that part of having fun and surviving is running the rules as they are written, and rewarding people for playing their character (including their powers) to the party's benefit, and working together. This combination of powers and actions is all about cooperation between two or more players, utilizing synergy to make the combined effort better than individual effort. To me, team cooperation was always part of the fun in D&D, and this example demonstrates the power of that cooperation well.


I'm all for cooperation under the rules, I used a Swordmage to pull a Warlord out of G-Cube then himself using the rules. (posted in another thread) But this has nothing to do with me "liking" or "disliking" a rule. I adjudicate how I interpret the rules, plain and simple.
 

My reaction to the original poster is to make me more interested in playing a Warlord. Commander's Strike is an excellent at-will power! It reminds me of Snake's Swiftness from 3.5, and that was a very good spell. Melee basic attacks generally deal more damage than most at-will attacks, and Commander's Strike adds your INT mod to that. What a deal! What's the range on that, eh? I don't see it as self-sacrifice at all. Characters succeed only insofar as the Party succeeds. The faster we can end this fight in our victory, the sooner we can get to the loot.

I do not see any imbalance whatsoever. The Warlord's power is to enhance the power of others. If he had that power, and kicked ass on his own, then it would be unbalanced, like the 3.x cleric. You're not "giving up" an action with Commander's Strike, your action is to activate another character's basic attack. Supose there were an arcane at-will ability that briefly conjured a doppleganger of another character, with the same stats and equipment, which disappeared after making a single basic attack. Would that be a "sacrifice," or a really neat trick? Well mechanically, that is essentially what Commander's Strike does.

Milambus gives a very good example of how powerful the Warlord really is, although the subsequent discussion of readied actions made my brain hurt for a while.

I strongly disagree with Azigoth. The idea that the Warlord is "sacrificing" himself for others is to choose a deliberately denigrating perspective. If the Warlord instead summoned brief exact dopplegangers of the player characters that acted then disappeared, the probable reaction would be that the ability was too powerful, not too weak. Milambus's example shows the kind of damage a Warlord really deals.

As others have pointed out several times, the Warlord generates measurable damage output, and if you properly attributed all damage they are responsible for to the Warlord, you'd see that you have a very effective damaging class, probably somewhere between a striker and a defender.

The notion that the Warlord sacrifices but the striker does nothing for the Warlord in return is, I feel, the result of an overly narrow and essentially fallacious point of view. It's like assuming the conclusion, instead of looking more closely at the actual mechanics and their outcomes. Rigamortus makes some excellent points. The strikers and defenders help the party at risk to themselves, while the Warlord may hang behind the front line and help the party.

Smeelbo
 

Antagonist does not have to be a negative term from a personality standpoint. Grab a dictionary if it helps. It is the opposite of protagonist. "Rules Monkey" doesn't either, just like geek. You're interpreting them as such because you disagree with me.

More likely because you did in fact use those terms in a negative fashion.

I see it as rules monkeys trying to cheat the system.

Or are you going to claim that accusing people of trying to cheat the system was meant in nice, friendly way?
 


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