D&D 5E Warlording the fighter

[epithet]

Pejorative is most certainly not open minded.

Pejorative is disparaging and marginalizing...dis-respectful and rude.

Rhetorically, it's an attempt to further one's argument by attacking the credibility of a premise (ethos), rather than addressing the logic of a premise (logos).

It has no place in a friendly, respectful discussion.

"Shouting wounds closed" isn't mine, I read it earlier in the thread. It might have been meant as snarky, I can't say. "Persuading an ally to not be damaged any more" is mine, and while I meant it to be simply a rhetorical shortcut, I concede that it might touch a nerve for a veteran of the edition wars discussed previously. Hence, I allow the possibility of "slightly pejorative" in an attempt to raise the underlying issue without being combative. I was trying to tread lightly.

Not to derail the current discussion, but I just realised how much I like this forum. It's nice to be in an online place where words have meaning, where people express themselves in complete sentences, and where I can be pretty sure that if someone doesn't understand what I'm writing, it's actually my own fault.

 

[aramis erak]

The reason is people want a non magical character with more options.

Take the idea of a pirate captain. A fighter should make a good one right? It's an archetype that should fall under a fighter's umbrella.

But a fighter would make a terrible ship's captain. No skills and no abilities to aid in sailing a ship. A ranger, bard or, of course, wizard would make a ten times better captain.

You don't need many - just the correct vehicle proficiency, and intimidate.

I want a fighter that can command a group. Not through magic but because he's a fighter and there are a bajillion mundane archetypes that should fit under fighter but don't.

Command is just Charisma.

 

[El Mahdi]

Command is just Charisma.

IMO, Command is just a part of Leadership. And Leadership would use Charisma or Wisdom.

IRL, Leadership is most supported by emotional intelligence/social intelligence and empathy (interpersonal and intrapersonal). In other words, depending on the situation: strength of personality, appearance of credibility, and understanding of people (their emotions and motivations) - not to mention understanding and controlling one's own emotions.

I'd call it the Leadership Skill (I know, 5E doesn't have one), and use the section Variant: Skills with Different Abilities (pg. 175) for guidance (thus Charisma or Wisdom).

For the prototype Warlord Class and expanded Battle Master Archetype I'm working on, I'm incorporating Leadership as a class/archetype feature with a bonus and usage equivalent to a skill (ability check using proficiency bonus with either charisma or wisdom).

I would appreciate any feedback or ideas on this (by anybody/everybody).

Too weak for a feature?
Just right?
Other uses?
Different mechanics?
etc...

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'd call it the Leadership Skill (I know, 5E doesn't have one), and use the section Variant: Skills with Different Abilities (pg. 175) for guidance (thus Charisma or Wisdom).

(I do like that variant, BTW.) Adding skills is something that can really hurt a game. Every time you add a skill you 'create incompetence' in anyone who was invested in the nearest alternatives (or just 'skating' if the DM never even called for rolls). If, before, you might have gotten by with some Insight/Since-Motive/whatever and some Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate/whatever, but now, while you might still need all those things, you're not able to make 'leadership' checks for want of another proficiency, you're suddenly less competent than you were. Just a caution.

For the prototype Warlord Class and expanded Battle Master Archetype I'm working on, I'm incorporating Leadership as a class/archetype feature with a bonus and usage equivalent to a skill (ability check using proficiency bonus with either charisma or wisdom).

Is this something that will overlap with skills (roll Leadership or roll Insight), stack with them (roll Intimidate, add your leadership skill as well), or replace them (roll Leadership, roll untrained if you don't have it)? The first is underwhelming (you can be a leader on the cheap, with fewer skills), the second is impressive (essentially Expertise in an area that might apply situationaly to several skills - also, broken if it stacks w/Expertise, obviously), and the third 'creates incompetence.'

Too weak for a feature? Just right?

Depending on exactly how it works, could range from potentially broken, all the way down to 'makes Remarkable Athlete look good.'

Different mechanics?

Maybe phrase it not as a skill, but as a skill modifier? Explain the range of situations and tasks which could be considered 'leadership' in detail, then maybe something like: when your DM rules that a check is Leadership-related, add your proficiency bonus, even if you do not have a proficiency that applies - if you do have an applicable proficiency, double your proficiency bonus (do not triple it if you have expertise).

Other uses?

Maybe could have some effect on the Help action, since that was mentioned upthread.

 

[El Mahdi]

(I do like that variant, BTW.) Adding skills is something that can really hurt a game. Every time you add a skill you 'create incompetence' in anyone who was invested in the nearest alternatives (or just 'skating' if the DM never even called for rolls). If, before, you might have gotten by with some Insight/Since-Motive/whatever and some Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate/whatever, but now, while you might still need all those things, you're not able to make 'leadership' checks for want of another proficiency, you're suddenly less competent than you were. Just a caution.

Very true.

Is this something that will overlap with skills

Overlap. Not stack or replace.

Maybe phrase it not as a skill, but as a skill modifier? Explain the range of situations and tasks which could be considered 'leadership' in detail, then maybe something like: when your DM rules that a check is Leadership-related, add your proficiency bonus, even if you do not have a proficiency that applies

Very Nice. I like this, but I don't want to go the route of adding extra bonuses if one already has them. 5E is definitely designed to avoid stacking.

Maybe could have some effect on the Help action, since that was mentioned upthread.

Most definitely.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Overlap. Not stack or replace.

On the 'underwhelming' side, then. You have a character who can be intimidating, persuasive, insightful, &c - as long as he's in charge, otherwise, not so much. Or, you can have the character who's leadership talents help him out in a wider range of areas (because he invested in the various applicable skills), but paradoxically, gains virtually nothing from the Leadership trait. The former makes a lot more sense from the perspective of allocating chargen/level-up resources, so I'd expect to see a lot of it, and I'm afraid it'd make the 'leaders' seem a tad petulant, always needing to be 'leading' in order to be competent.

Very Nice. I like this, but I don't want to go the route of adding extra bonuses if one already has them. 5E is definitely designed to avoid stacking.

Unless it can stack with or otherwise beat out Expertise, I don't see a big problem.

Currently, if you define a 'leader' primarily as being particularly good at certain CHA & WIS based checks, the best choices for an optimal Leader would Rogue and Bard due to Expertise giving them the highest possible checks. Presumably, you'd want to add a third class to that list, not have it be strictly inferior at leadership-type checks.

 

[El Mahdi]

Good point about Expertise.

Then yes, stack with applicable skills/proficiencies they may already have - when the DM agrees there is synergy with Leadership (though guidance can be supplied in the feature description or in a sidebar). Then also, I'm thinking they can either do the same for somebody else (add their proficiency bonus to the others skill check), or (preferred) provide advantage for Working Together even if they are not capable of performing the task them self - though with the expenditure of an action economy resource (what resource still to be determined - maybe superiority dice if I even end up using them...). I wouldn't want a Warlord character spamming every ability/skill check, though expeditious use of Leadership should make a difference.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

One potential option, for a "organization makes power" kind of effect: normally, having more than one helper makes little to no difference, as you can't get better than Advantage (iirc? I'm AFB for a while). But having a party member whose *thing* is getting people working together to achieve more than they could alone? It seems like that should allow for...more. I'm not sure how that could be done with 5e's rather...narrow ranges; adding static bonuses would probably be unbalanced and "double advantage" would be practically guaranteed success. But...if "leader of others" is what we want, and we want it to be more than JUST fighting (even if that's what most of it is about), then something which encourages teamwork and facilitates others, essentially having the "spotlight" of "make other spotlights shine brighter," seems like a good idea.

 

[Warbringer]

Can I ask that if the premise is that all hit points are at least partially meat, therefore all healing is the physical application of a remedy via "healing" - treatment by a medic or medical kit - or "its magic", how does this gel with the standard rules for self healing after a long rest (8 hours)?

Where does this regeneration come from?

 

[Minigiant]

Really I think a lot would be fixed if there were more subclasses for the fighter that utilized mental stats. This way a player could run a Str/Wis fighter or a Dex/Int fighter and not feel penalized for not taking traditional fighter secondary ability scores.

There is history of this in the d20modern mental heros, the 3rd edition Duelist PRC, and (although babrabrian) 4e Thenaborn.

You could strip the tactical elements of the warlord and the duelist for the INT martial archetype, the inspirational elements of the warlord and fear elements of the thane for the CHA martial archetype, and the insightful elements of the warlord for the WIS martial archetype. With this you count then add more mental aspects of weapons combat to D&D.