D&D 5E Warlording the fighter

[MoonSong]

Even within the martial concept, it's been used for more than that, or could be further expanded. The Bravura Warlord, for instance, was a lead-from-the-front, secondary-defender, 'Warrior' type, the Inspiring build also tended that way. Tactical Warlords, OTOH, ranged from officer types barking orders while fighting in the front line (as originally conceived) to the fan-devised (and latter expanded in Dragon) 'Lazy' (or as Garthanos called them 'Princess') builds that handed out most of their actions to other characters, either as a lead-from-the-rear commander, or as, conceptually, a non-combatant merely inspiring greater heroics in their defense.

Quite aside from the sub-class-of-multiple-classes idea (which also came up in discussions of psionics, BTW, where it was a lot more obvious because 1e psionics could be possessed by characters of any class), even a single-class design of the Warlord needs to be very flexible in the range of builds, genre archetypes, and character concepts it can handle.

(Really, any martial class does, since there are so few non-magical sub-classes, each one has to do a lot of heavy lifting. In fact, one thing that's occurred to me is that the Warlord might very well be the only non-magic-using class added to the game, possibly the first & only class to have no magic-using sub-classes, and that each of it's sub-classes could be devoted to filling some of the many non-DPR/'striker' roles currently restricted to casters. For instance, the Bravura sub-class could be a primary Defender/'tank' with only a secondary emphasis on DPR perhaps partially from enhancing ally's attacks. You could have an Inspiring (though 5e has thoroughly flogged 'Inspiration,' so maybe Icon or Paragon) sub-class that's more like the 4e-fan-devised Lazy warlord, a dedicated healer/buffer/action-granter. You could have Hector imposing conditions through taunting, intimidation, and deception or even a follower-based (phalanx, pike square, archers, sappers, whatever) Commander blurring the lines between D&D small-unit tactical skirmish game and small-unit tactical wargame, and thus tread around the ground of 'controller'/'spoiler'/'blaster' roles.)

Nice ideas, sending them to my past self so I can retroactively plagiarize them....n_n

More seriously wow, mostly the same ideas I had when I pitched to En5ider..

 

[Tony Vargas]

Nice ideas, sending them to my past self so I can retroactively plagiarize them....n_n

More seriously wow, mostly the same ideas I had when I pitched to En5ider..

I'm not surprised, there's so little done with non-casters in 5e, when so much had been done in 3.5 and 4e, it's easy to see the opportunities for expansion.

 

[bert1000]

My 2cents. As someone who liked the 4e Warlord, I am on board with a 5e version and would love to see fan-made versions. As far as healing is concerned, I have no problem with having Warlord healing work mechanically the same as magical healing and just fluffing it differently. That said, 4e is not 5e, so I really don't care if there is another mechanical representation. The end result should be something like:

Player 1: Do you think we need more healing in the party? We have a Fighter, Wizard, and Warlock.
Player 2: Nah, I'm going to play a Warlord.
Player 1: Ok, sounds good.

I went back and looked at the 4e Warlord class abilities and daily powers to see what they did and came up with the following. It's not scientific by any means but gives a good sense of what the 4e Warlord could do.

Note that the Warlord could usually do one of these things AND hit someone with a sword on the same turn. Also many of these powers were "multiple target" and many buffs and debuffs lasted "until the end of the encounter".

The interesting thing about the list is that most of the abilities have some version in 5e already (menacing strike, commanders, second wind, etc.). The 5e versions tend to be weak because they are built on the Fighter chassis. If you want to build the Warlord on the Fighter chassis, I think you need to be able to trade attacks for uses of powerful abilities. E.g., attack once and burn "3 attacks" for the ability to grant 3 allies an off turn free attack with advantage.

Healing and condition negation:
Minor action heal HPs
Regain HPs
Grant temporary HPs
Grant saving throw (off turn or extra)

Positioning:
Repositioning (shift, pushing, pulling, sliding) of self, allies, and enemies

Conditions on enemy:
Restrict movement of enemy
Condition applied – weakened, dazed, prone, stun, etc.
Impose vulnerability
Penalty to saving throws
Ongoing damage applied

Extra actions for allies:
Extra off turn attacks for allies
Extra off turn move actions for allies
Move enemy and force opportunity attacks from allies as enemy goes by

Buffing of allies and self:
Bonus to initiative
Bonus to perception / insight
Bonus to defenses
Bonus to damage
Bonus to attack
Bonus on a charge
In exchange for being more vulnerable, grant bonuses
Increase speed of allies
Increase critical range
Allow a reroll on attack
Refresh encounter powers

Other:
Stances that deal auto damage off turn

​

 

[Hussar]

Not much. For instance, you still need to have HD to trigger for them to apply.

1 HD restores, /on average/ (and it's pretty swingy, by definition, being a discrete uniform distribution) slightly less than 1/(level+1) total hps, how slightly less depends on the die size. If your first HD were rolled instead of maximized, it'd be simpler, just 1/level. Of course, that's assuming no CON bonus, which would vary things based on CON bonus relative to die size. 1 HD + Con mod, though, is going to approach 1/level as a fraction of hps as you rise in level. At 1st level, closer to 1/2, the lower your CON mod and larger your HD. Again, on average, when you're as likely to roll 1 or max as to roll within half a point of average. FWIW.

Seems like a mathematically precise correlation to the Cleric's healing potential in excess of HD is impractical. Especially give that the Cleric side of the equation will vary wildly based on spells prepared and how slots are used in the course of the day. In theory, a Cleric could prep no healing spells, so provide no extra healing, at all. About the only way to do it would be the way 4e did: give the Warlord per-rest resources comparable to the Cleric's.

Rather than trying to get extra healing from a bonus to match some benchmark, just picking a mod that's simple and makes sense would be a good starting point. Then, in playtesting, it could be evaluated to see if it was too much or too little. Obvious candidate modifiers would be the targets CON mod (per usual for spending HD), the Warlord's CHA mod (since he's doing the inspiring), and the Warlord or target's level (or the higher or lower of the two).

Fair enough. And probably a better way of doing it. Start with with X bonus and then adjust to taste. Maybe simply doubling the die might work. I dunno. Like I said, someone more mathy than me could figure that out better.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Another thing to consider: Most classes that can heal get at least two distinct avenues of doing so, some get more. For example, Clerics get at least one (and often two, sometimes three) healing spells at every spell level except 4th, plus their suite of sweet buffs and other restorative spells for things unrelated to HP per se (resurrections, restorations, etc.) Then, if the player chooses to be a Life Cleric, they get (a) further improvements to their healing spells, (b) additional non-spell sources of healing, and (c) the ability to benefit themselves, in addition to their targets, with their healing spells. Bards share many of the same spells, have the option to acquire more via Secrets, and get Song of Rest as well. Paladins get fewer direct healing spells, but they also bring Lay on Hands to the table. Druids are probably the least heal-y of the classes that can heal natively, as it is the only "healing" class with no additional healing-related abilities or specializations.

Basically what I'm saying is, most spellcasters that can heal at all get easily 2-3 legitimately different ways to heal just through spells, and most get additional sources through class features too.

Now, the Life Cleric probably shouldn't be our 'standard' for a Warlord, I'm not trying to suggest that at all. The point is just that, if Warlords are to be taken seriously as a class that can do this at all, it should probably have more than a single mechanic for refilling HP. Augmented, and particularly in-combat, HD heals is, as I've already said, a good starting point. That could probably even fly as a 'generic' thing that all Warlords get. But, just as Bards can choose to spend Magical Secrets on healing, and Clerics can choose the Life domain, I truly feel that Warlords should be free to choose, either as a 'specialization' (a la Life Domain) or as a palette option (a la Magical Secrets), additional mechanics which go above and beyond this. For a Warlord that isn't especially keen on "healing" per se, simply unlocking/boosting non-rest Hit Dice should be totally adequate, and they can pursue other lines of support instead.

What form, exactly, these optional secondary/tertiary avenues of healing should take, I have no idea. But when even Druids can have two distinctly different healing mechanics (Goodberry, Cure Wounds, arguably Healing Word) from 1st level, despite having literally zero support for healing from any of their class features, it seems pretty clear to me that Warlords should have some further options too.

 

[epithet]

All the other healers you mentioned burn spell slots to heal. As I mentioned above, external 5e healing always burns a resource. HD seem to be the obvious choice for primary, but for a secondary/tertiary avenue, what else did you have in mind?

One possibility might be to let the WL's CHA bonus apply to using a healer's kit (double at 5, triple at 11, quadruple at 17.) That would stack with the healer feat, if the WL took that.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Basically what I'm saying is, most spellcasters that can heal at all get easily 2-3 legitimately different ways to heal just through spells, and most get additional sources through class features too.

Sure, and the Warlord had comparable flexibility via 350 exploits and class features, both common, like Inspiring Word, and by build, like Commanding Presences. Surge triggers, limited non-surge hp restoration (mostly via daily resources, as was generally the case with non-surge healing, though Inspiring Presence did so in small amounts based on an ally's use of Action points), extra saves & save bonuses, among other exception-based bits here or there.

One thing the Warlord did not have, in spite of having the Heal skill on his list, was anything much to enhance that skill - it was the 'Warlord,' not the 'Medic' afterall. But, though the class officially stayed very much a combatant, the fans did come up with builds that avoided having the 'warlord' make attacks, himself, and such borderline non-combatant builds might be a good candidate for Healer type tricks.

The point is just that, if Warlords are to be taken seriously as a class that can do this at all, it should probably have more than a single mechanic for refilling HP. Augmented, and particularly in-combat, HD heals is, as I've already said, a good starting point. That could probably even fly as a 'generic' thing that all Warlords get.

I agree that there need to be options, doubly so because some of those options may be things that certain folks /really/ want to avoid. There are several issues with triggering HD, none serious, but enough that making it possible (and viable) for a player to ignore HD-linked choices in favor of other alternatives would be a positive. For instance, if a DM decides not to use the HD mechanic, at all, an ability that /only/ works while HD are available would need alternatives.

All the other healers you mentioned burn spell slots to heal. As I mentioned above, external 5e healing always burns a resource

Much like non-Surge healing resources in 4e, which were generally daily resources. Most exceptions still expended some significant resource. The Pacifist Cleric had some tricks that bypassed all that, but they still couldn't be 'spammed.' In fact, until the MME, there weren't even non-surge healing potions, so you couldn't trade gp for hp like in 3e.

In 5e healing potions are 'common' and a Healer can get you back some hps with a use of a healer's kit, so there is a potential gp -> hp route open. As always in 5e, the DM is empowered to open or close that route as he sees fit.

HD seem to be the obvious choice for primary

It's the closest correlation to surges, but it's still not that close. But it's an obvious way to port Inspiring Word, if you're not to worried about making it fit into 5e - which is definitely a good way to start.

for a secondary/tertiary avenue, what else did you have in mind?

The most sensible way for the system to ration hp resources in 5e is at the long-rest re-charge level. That's the point at which you refresh your hps and re-charge HD (another of the minor problems with HD is that they are the hardest resource to recharge - you can expend all your HD and probably heal up to full, but getting them back takes longer than recovering all your spell slots at any level). However, there are already precedents that do so at a short rest.

One possibility might be to let the WL's CHA bonus apply to using a healer's kit (double at 5, triple at 11, quadruple at 17.) That would stack with the healer feat, if the WL took that.

As I mentioned to Ezekiel, above, it's not the 'Medic' class, but something like that might work for any implementation of the oddball 'layz warlord' builds that try to be virtual non-combatants. Applying bandages, aid & comfort even in the midst of battle, when the vast majority of Warlords would be fighting, themselves. The combat-effective non-combatant is not something D&D has done a whole lot of, but the 'healer' role is an obvious place for such options (the Pacifist cleric being the prime example).

 

[Tony Vargas]

Something else that may need to be looked at is how the Warlord will stay competitive, in regard to damage, at higher levels.

It shouldn't stay (nor even quite begin) competitive with the Fighter, as that's the fighter's whole deal, and it's too easy for the two classes to be superficially similar.

The Warlord is going to need to be an option-rich class, both to avoid throwing conceptual obstacles up that would keep interested players from considering it, and because both it's original formal Role, and the corresponding informal 5e roles demand a lot of flexibility.

Doing level-appropriate damage then, would be something the Warlord could (perhaps day by day) choose to focus on or expend resource upon instead of his usual role, when the situation demands it.

If a fighter sub-class then this won't really be an issue

It won't really be a Warlord,either. ;P

The most obvious is of course, granting extra attacks to others which does mean that, if alone, the warlord is unable to make use of these abilities. I'm not sure how often that would happen since each table plays differently.

Nod. It's not really an obstacle to designing it that way, though, as all classes are situational to some degree in 5e, by design - it's the DM's job to run a campaign with a reasonable variety of situations, so that the particular PCs in it all have a chance to shine.

Inspiring Word
An ally within 60 ft. of you that you can see may spend a hit die to heal, adding 1d4 + your charisma bonus to the result.
You may use this on each ally once. Recharges on rest.
The die increases to 1d6 at 5th level, 1d8 at 10th level, and 1d10 at 15th level.

Just a die size increase is probably too little scaling, and short-rest recharge might be an issue....

... though I do like the idea of the limit to use having something to do with the ally as well as or instead of the warlord...

 

[epithet]

If you're playing a Warlord in a solo campaign, you're gonna want some retainers.

 

[Hussar]

If you're playing a Warlord in a solo campaign, you're gonna want some retainers.

Yeah. Really, a warlord is a class that should not be going it alone. It's main point is "Leader of men". On his own, he's just a poor man's fighter.