D&D 5E [Warlords] Should D&D be tied to D&D Worlds?
.Likewise.
Because I don't know what range of games you've played and/or are familiar with, I don't know what expectations and assumptions you are bringing to this issue.
But for me, what you calll "spell name semantics" is actually very important.
In the real world, for instance, injury - especially modest injury - generally isn't cumulative. For instance, if I cut my thumb and sprain my ankle, the two can heal simultaneously; and progress in the healing of one (eg visiting the physio for my ankle) is pretty irrelevant to the healing of the other, and vice versa (eg visiting the doctor to get my thumb stitched up).
But hit points are strictly cumulative, and can be restored either in big chunks ("Cure Critical Wounds") or in modest little chunks a bit at a time ("Cure Light Wounds"). What, in the fiction, is all this meant to represent? Upthread, you suggested that in the case of Disintegrate it's destroyed skin, bone and/or muscle. But I can't see that.
For instance, a PC falls 10' and takes (pre-4e) 1d6 hp of damage - lets call it 3 hp. S/he has (let's say) 5 of 8 hp left. What does that hp loss represent? Probably not a sprained or broken ankle, because s/he can still walk and run normally. So let's say its bruising and cracked ribs.
A Cure Light Wounds spell (for 1d6+1 in B/X, or 1d8 in AD&D) is just right to heal this injury, which seems aptly described as a "light wound." But how does magic which restores bruises or mends cracked ribs help when what has happened is that your skin has been eaten away and your bone and/or muscle destroyed?
Now put in the other point to which I referred upthread - that the 11th level victim of a Disintegrate spell can still probably wrestle and defeat a tiger bare-handed - and I find it even less plausible that a Disintegrate spell has destroyed any significant quantity of skin, bone or muscle.
The contrast with a system like Rolemaster or HARP is, for me, very marked. In those systems, hits from weapons either cause bruising, bleeding, pain and fatigue ("concussion hits" is the technical term), or cause particular defined injuries ("criticals" is the technical term). Lose enough concussion hits and you suffer penalties to action, or eventually fall unconscious; take a critical and you suffer penalties to action, lose the use of a limb, or perhaps are dismembered or disembowelled or decapitated. (Or in the case of a 00 "E" Electricity critical, "foe returns to the dust from which s/he came.")
And the healing system reflects this. Recovering from a broken limb takes weeks. And happens in parallel with recovering from other injuries. And healing spells are ranked in power. Regrowing a limb requires more powerful magic than healing a fracture. Which requires more powerful magic than healing a bruise.
The system isn't perfect. It has oddities, and the healing magic and injury system aren't fully synchronised in the descriptions and categories that they use. Still, it makes it pretty easy to envisage what is happening in the fiction when someone gets hurt; and what is happening in the fiction if they heal by resting, or if they are healed by magic.
This is a system in which a Disintegrate spell can strip away skin and rupture bones and muscles, and the mechanics give effect to that. (One of my players once played a destruction mage, called a Sorcerer in RM parlance.)
Whereas in D&D, that interpretation of the spell just makes no sense to me - there is literally no point at which the mechanical resolution of the spell or its consequences is consistent with such fiction. Either the target of the spell suffered no serious harm (but simply the stress of fighting off the magic), or the target was turned to dust. Introducing the warlord into this situation then makes no difference - a warlord can't help anyone who's been turned to dust, and a warlord's inspiration very obviously can help someone recover or push through the stress of fighting off magic.
Manbearcat
Legend
Originally Posted by Ratskinner
I've shepherded many people into the hobby, and excepting those who've played a lot of video games HP seem to be a big sticking point. I can't even number the times I've had to respond to a comment like "Wait, didn't he just get hit with a sword? Is his arm off or what?" After the explanations of the HP system, I can often watch the skepticism blossom in their faces. I often suspect that the prevalence of HP mechanics in rpgs is a subtle deterrent to more folks like me being involved in this hobby.
Imagine its evolution and the current, greater D&D culture if we could travel back in time and retcon the vernacular (and its like):
- "unconscious" as "incapacitated" or "stressed out"
- "roll to hit" as "roll for success"
- "cure < > wounds" as "lesser/greater/etc divine rejuvenation"
Random specificity has served D&D in the same capacity as false precision has served science.
[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] : great ! Could you give some examples of your "Failing with Panache !" rule in play ?
+1 concerning HP as an entry barrier to D&D
Concerning Disintegrate, the disconnect was introduced with 3e, which interpreted the spell as HP loss (to cap its efficiency, I suppose). It's obviously a questionnable design choice, as [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] pointed. It has a desirable effect of enabling the wizard to contribute to the same HP depletion game as the rest of the party, but mapping each and every effect to a 1-dimensional hp gain or loss has serious limits : for Save or Die effects, "the stress of fighting magic back" is getting old pretty soon. It's a big issue, and [MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] delaying its L&L column has me getting nervous, and I feel it has LOTS to say about Healing (that is, HP restoration) effects and narration, and our discussion aroind the Warlord.
(after many hesitations, I think I would like tiered effects, like a mini condition track, with initial position and moving up and down tied to saving throws or opposed checks, with specifics belonging to each effect : fiddly, but comensurate to the mechanical and narrative importance of such SFX)
I've learned D&D through french, and the Healing spells names would better translate to "minor/major/serious/critical cure" with no reference to wounds. Shrödinger wounds lost in translation !
+1 concerning HP as an entry barrier to D&D
Concerning Disintegrate, the disconnect was introduced with 3e, which interpreted the spell as HP loss (to cap its efficiency, I suppose). It's obviously a questionnable design choice, as [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] pointed. It has a desirable effect of enabling the wizard to contribute to the same HP depletion game as the rest of the party, but mapping each and every effect to a 1-dimensional hp gain or loss has serious limits : for Save or Die effects, "the stress of fighting magic back" is getting old pretty soon. It's a big issue, and [MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] delaying its L&L column has me getting nervous, and I feel it has LOTS to say about Healing (that is, HP restoration) effects and narration, and our discussion aroind the Warlord.
(after many hesitations, I think I would like tiered effects, like a mini condition track, with initial position and moving up and down tied to saving throws or opposed checks, with specifics belonging to each effect : fiddly, but comensurate to the mechanical and narrative importance of such SFX)
I've learned D&D through french, and the Healing spells names would better translate to "minor/major/serious/critical cure" with no reference to wounds. Shrödinger wounds lost in translation !
Starfox
Hero
This was supposed to be what d20 was all about (inspired by games like Rolemaster), but for some reason they stuck to keeping different abilities (attack rolls, spells) away from the general mechanism (used for skills) - to preserve the class paradigm, I suppose. To be fair, Rolemaster also uses different mechanisms for its spells and skills. As others have said, unifying these mechanics would be a great step to simplify a set of RPG rules.
Starfox
Hero
Starfox
Hero
The warlord has no conceptual problem with the old-style disintegrate - nobody has proposed the warlord should be capable of mending a classic disintegration. It is one case where the warlord is entirely helpless - as is the cleric before Miracle if I recall. Classic disintegration is a problem with the magic-user, not the warlord.
Manbearcat
Legend
Yup. No accident.
Manbearcat
Legend
Looking at one of the cards, I have "Rotted Roof Decking" on one side and "The Bandit King Loves a Show" on the other.
The first one was the rooftop chase of a gem thief that sells gems to a fence who works for The Bandit King. The PC in question was about to nab the thief (and finish off the Skill Challenge) when he decided to invoke this. He decided the roof they were on would have a spot of rotten roof decking that the thief was aware of but he wasn't. The thief strategically lures him to it, he falls through (losing a Healing Surge as well as failing his panel) and is in the attic space of the building trying to recover. His allies successfully completed the challenge and nabbed the fence-knowing thief; thus tracking down the fence and locating the Bandit King's lair.
Those were his narration rights and now he writes the card with "Rotten Roof Decking" on it. His having the card means he has the encounter power above in his pocket for future usage. His future usage was in an audience with the Bandit King. They were attempting to ally with him against a greater threat (rather than kill him outright and lose the Resource of the Bandits in their greater struggle). The Bandit King has multiple jesters/fools and "Loves a Show". The PC in question attempted a sleight of hand (Thievery) of a golden bracelet and 4 rings from the Bandit King during a handshake to triumphantly show him at the end of the audience as the final, dramatic success in the challenge. He barely failed the Hard DC > cashed in encounter card > success + narration rights and the outcome above once the final success is accrued in the Skill Challenge.
[MENTION=2303]Starfox[/MENTION] : you're absolutely right about the Warlord not having problems with old school Disintegrate. Old school Disintegrate has been amended in order to be more balanced (capping its efficiency and reducing its swinginess) and more cinematic (because having a big boss end fight ending in 1 round doesn't provide much of a show). These (foolish imho, the solution is worse than the original problem, ie magic users being "overpowered" and "unfun" has more to do with metagame breaking spells - fly, scry, teleport - than SoD) rules change put even more stress on the HP paradigm, as been proven in this thread. In turn, it puts an even greater burden on the Warlord shoulders, because he now has to deal with "disintegration damage mitigation through inspiration"...
Concerning False Precision, I think you guys are a bit elliptic !
If I understand you well, I proposed a few months ago a copernician shift about HP : characters don't have HP, only a HD pool used to mitigate damage. On average, its the same as rolling HD to obtain your classic dwindling HP total, but the uncertain nature of it would prevent "false precision" effects (such as "I can fall this high and be sure to survive" nonsense).
Concerning False Precision, I think you guys are a bit elliptic !
If I understand you well, I proposed a few months ago a copernician shift about HP : characters don't have HP, only a HD pool used to mitigate damage. On average, its the same as rolling HD to obtain your classic dwindling HP total, but the uncertain nature of it would prevent "false precision" effects (such as "I can fall this high and be sure to survive" nonsense).
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