Warrior-Mage Prestige Classes: which are viable & which are not

[Felon]

Most of those classes are totally broken. At least in the sense of what they give on a per-level basis. For example the Abjurant Champion is basically gaining all the meat of Fighter and all the meat of Sorceror -- at the same time. Even the Enlightened Fist is crazy like that. Let's see, make me basically a monk except I get full priest spell instead of a bunch of wonky abilities (and I still get a lot of those abilities). Yeah, that's good.

The enlightened fist is an arcane caster, not divine, and they get thoroughly shafted. I'll put it another way for you "Let's see, I give up levels of progression to gain unarmed combat abilities that could only be generously described as half-assed".

The abjurant champion strikes me as a bit much, as it would be a perfectly viable class just by giving out the d10 HD, full BAB, and full caster progression, iwth no class featues whatsoever--especially considering how easy its requirements are. In fact, it handily blows away the eldritch knight IMO. I guess they're thinking a spelcaster would get impatient waiting to get the +5 BAB and just go ahead and take some levels in a warrior class.

The other aspect to the balance of such classes, of course, is the requirements to obtain them. I.e. some can be balanced by basically forcing the player to build a character very suboptimally in order to meet the prereqs in the first play. Generally, however, this is a poor way to balance them. For one, it rarely works. For two, it forces the player to be crappy for a long time before finally getting a character that actually works.

OK, your "for one" is a total non-arguement. Your "for two", however, has some merit and I touched upon it earlier. Requiring a warrior-mage to have access to third-level spellcasting means at least five or six levels in the exact sort of panty-waist class that the player was seeking to avoid.

The best balanced warrior/mage? Someone who takes levels of fighter and levels of wizard or sorceror. Such a character tends to end up a bit low on the power curve but is still closer to the right power level than most of these prestige classes are.

You have an odd notion of the word "balanced" here. Such a character wouldn't be worth squat as a warrior, wouldn't be worth jack as a mage, and would struggle to contribute to the party at all times. In many ways, "overpowered" is more balanced than "underpowered".

A PrC for spell-casters of any kind that doesn't grant full caster progression isn't worth taking. You need both spell levels and caster levels to be able to compete as you level; these two things are that important, and nothing published to date trumps the ability to toss wish/prayer spells and reliably beat top-tier Spell Resistance. If that means that fighter-mage PrCs have to offer the meat of both parent base classes to make them viable PrCs, so be it. It's not like DMs are required to have them in a given campaign.

It's always nice to see sharply-contrasted viewpoints, both of which have some merit.

 

[Felon]

I don't think the Eldritch Knight obsolete. With a proper build, F2/W7/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10 you have a BA+16 with 4 attacks, 9th level spells, can wear most light armors with no chance of failure. This is hard to do with any other combination.

Eldritch Knight is fantastic for a touch spell caster. A lot of the touch spells are great spells, but reliably hitting with cover and melee penalties can be hard for a 1/2 BAB class. The bonus feat and fighter level you need to get in can get you point blank and precise shot, and the BAB will both help you hit and eventually qualify you for improved precise shot.

Thanks for the follow-ups on the eldritch knight. I've never heard positive things said about it, mainly because BAB is of so little use with a mage anyway.

 

[Felon]

I disagree with your assessment of Enlightened Fist... of course, the viability of the class does depend upon the Ascetic Mage feat. Given that, though, it works fairly well.

The chief benefit of the ascetic mage is swapping out Wisdom bonus to AC for Charisma. And AC is the least of the enlightened fist's problems (with mage armor or greater mage armor, he actually gets a pretty sweet deal there). It's a crippler to have to cough up those six levels of sorcerer, and hopefully the designers have figured that out.

 

[Felon]

By popular demand (well, one guy mentioned it...)

Bladesinger
Source: Complete Warrior
The hook: Elite elven warrior merging the arts of swordplay and spellcasting.
Levels: 10
HD: d8
BAB progression: Full
Caster progression: Every odd level
Viability: Marginal at best. The requirements are brutal: BAB +5, 4 feats, some ranks in multiple skills that aren't class skills for a fighter or wizard (when a class has more than three feats as a requirement, you're being pushed towards fighter levels). For all this effort one would think they'd be getting a pretty potent class after that, but for every-other-level progression you're actually getting pretty tame stuff. You suffer from ASF until 6th-level, you're expected to fight with a rapier, and the other spellsongs just don't make you a formidable warrior.

 

[StGabe]

A PrC for spell-casters of any kind that doesn't grant full caster progression isn't worth taking. You need both spell levels and caster levels to be able to compete as you level; these two things are that important, and nothing published to date trumps the ability to toss wish/prayer spells and reliably beat top-tier Spell Resistance. If that means that fighter-mage PrCs have to offer the meat of both parent base classes to make them viable PrCs, so be it.

So basically you are saying that wizards are powerful therefore anything that is going to compete with a wizard has to be able to cast all the same spells, just as well, oh and have the BAB of a fighter. I.e. a wizard is already broken, let's give them a prestige class that makes them even more broken.

The core philosophy of 3e+ and the thing which you don't seem to be accepting is that you can multiclass aplenty but you always have to give something up. A level of one class is equal, more or less, to a level of another class. Where it's not, that's an aspect of the system that is poorly balanced.

It's not like DMs are required to have them in a given campaign.

Exactly the point. A DM that is interested in a balanced campaign setting won't give these out as they are very unbalanced.

You have an odd notion of the word "balanced" here. Such a character wouldn't be worth squat as a warrior, wouldn't be worth jack as a mage, and would struggle to contribute to the party at all times.

Not at all. For example, take five levels of wizard and you lose +3BAB, an average of 7.5 hps and 3 fighter feats. You gain: a familiar, a wizard feat, more balanced and slightly higher saves, and most importantly the ability to cast up to third level spells including:

Mage Armor (quite decent armor replacement for the first 10 or so levels)
Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, etc.
True Strike
Enlarge
Invisibility
Blur
Mirror Image
Darkness
Resist Elements
Fly
Haste
Keen Edge
Displacement
Major Image

I.e. an incredible arsenal of utility spells. It's simply untrue that such a character is that bad. They might be slightly underpowered to the rest of the group but, IME, a slightly underpowered character is much better to have around than someone who is definitely overpowered. Someone who is slightly overpowered will still contribute a lot, especially in a well run campaign that will allow the player to use their utility spells well, to roleplay, etc. Someone who is overpowered overshadows everyone sitting at the table and makes them all enjoy the experience less.

Such a character is only broken bad if you think that you need to be broken good to compete.

...

Let's compare that to taking a level of fighter, 5 levels of wizard and then the 10 in Eldritch Wizard (which people seem to be considering one of the weakest classes here) to 16 levels of wizard:

You lose 2 levels of caster progression and 2 caster feats.

You gain:
Two fighter feats
More varied, higher Saves
+5BAB
An average of +16 hps

In other words, for a cost of what is basically two levels worth, you gain what would take other classes 5+ levels to gain.

...

The only argument here seems to be: yeah but I need wish at level 17 or I'm not broken. That's not an argument. It doesn't have anything to do with class balance, it has to do with the fact that high level casting can get out of hand and it's the reason why a lot of campaigns quit well before that level. Casting those spells, and playing high level characters like that CAN be fun, but by the time you get there either the DM has to do a lot of work to keep wizards from dominating or balance has gone completely out the window.

 

[Darklone]

By popular demand (well, one guy mentioned it...)

Bladesinger
Source: Complete Warrior
The hook: Elite elven warrior merging the arts of swordplay and spellcasting.

Didn't you get Evasion as well ?

Edit: sorry, was the Spelldancer.

 

[wildstarsreach]

By popular demand (well, one guy mentioned it...)

Bladesinger
Source: Complete Warrior
The hook: Elite elven warrior merging the arts of swordplay and spellcasting.
Levels: 10
HD: d8
BAB progression: Full
Caster progression: Every odd level
Viability: Marginal at best. The requirements are brutal: BAB +5, 4 feats, some ranks in multiple skills that aren't class skills for a fighter or wizard (when a class has more than three feats as a requirement, you're being pushed towards fighter levels). For all this effort one would think they'd be getting a pretty potent class after that, but for every-other-level progression you're actually getting pretty tame stuff. You suffer from ASF until 6th-level, you're expected to fight with a rapier, and the other spellsongs just don't make you a formidable warrior.

Try doing F1, Swashbuckler 3, Wizard 5 and then 10 levels of blade singer, and then 1 level of wizard at the end. +17 BA, Saves f10/r10/w10, wizard cast level 11 with 6th level spells. You get a quicken 1/day, ability to waer lt armor, elven chain come to mind.

In most cases you aren't going to be as good as either a ighter or wizard but you have a unique nich as a blended character. The EK knight build I suggested in an earlier post does have access to ninth level spells but with slightly worse stats.

Personally I love the Duskblade class which is a great blended base class. You don't get everything but this is an interesting and good class in and of itself.

Each of the classes have +'s and -'s that based on flavor and likes of the person make interesting characters. If you only look for the min/max'er then very few of these characters are good. Take a concept, develope the character and have fun.

My friend in a game that I'm playing a duskblade suggested taking D5/W3 and then Ultimate Magus. He also suggested D5/Archivist 3/Mystic Thurge. These offer unique challanges but I think that I'm going to stay Duskblade to 20th.

 

[Darklone]

Try doing F1, Swashbuckler 3, Wizard 5 and then 10 levels of blade singer, and then 1 level of wizard at the end. +17 BA, Saves f10/r10/w10, wizard cast level 11 with 6th level spells. You get a quicken 1/day, ability to waer lt armor, elven chain come to mind.

Celestial chainmail. Nothing else.

 

[Luthien Greyspear]

By popular demand (well, one guy mentioned it...)

Bladesinger
Source: Complete Warrior
The hook: Elite elven warrior merging the arts of swordplay and spellcasting.
Levels: 10
HD: d8
BAB progression: Full
Caster progression: Every odd level
Viability: Marginal at best. The requirements are brutal: BAB +5, 4 feats, some ranks in multiple skills that aren't class skills for a fighter or wizard (when a class has more than three feats as a requirement, you're being pushed towards fighter levels). For all this effort one would think they'd be getting a pretty potent class after that, but for every-other-level progression you're actually getting pretty tame stuff. You suffer from ASF until 6th-level, you're expected to fight with a rapier, and the other spellsongs just don't make you a formidable warrior.

Don't forget the AC boost that begins at first level. This is a great way to make a "nimble warrior" type character that won't fall too far behind the tanks in the party, particularly if you put your gold pieces and your stat boosts into Int increases. A Headband of Intellect +4 on a bladesinger is not only increasing his spells per day and DC's, but is also gaining an extra +2 dodge bonus to his AC at all times.

Also, rapier is NOT the only weapon you have to use. The longsword is actually far more stereotypical for the elven warrior, and is probably the most common weapon found in treasure hoards. The bladesinger is practically guaranteed to be able to find a great weapon, allowing him to spend his money on the aforementioned Int-boosting magic, as well as new spells for his spellbook.

 

[Felon]

Exactly the point. A DM that is interested in a balanced campaign setting won't give these out as they are very unbalanced.

By your own assertion, balance has to do with give-and-take, and the give-and-take here is giving up some of the assets of being a warrior (BAB, HP, and warrior class features) and some of the assets of an arcanist (caster level and spell access progression).

The odd thing here is, you're championing a fighter/mage build as balanced because it presents exactly that trade-off. So, how is the fighter/mage more balanced than a spellsword? It isn't. It's achieves the same results, just in a sloppier, less consistent way.

Not at all. For example, take five levels of wizard and you lose +3BAB, an average of 7.5 hps and 3 fighter feats. You gain: a familiar, a wizard feat, more balanced and slightly higher saves, and most importantly the ability to cast up to third level spells including:

The average HP difference between a fighter and mage's hit die is 3 HP/level, so it's 15 HP.

That's 15 HP, and your BAB progression is staggered back pretty hard, with the reprecussions being missing more often, fewer attacks, and inability to qualify for feats that make a much a big difference in a fighter's effectiveness (something taken very much for granted).

And what you cite as an asset is gaining access to patch up those holes with low-level buff spells that a fighter can get cost-effectively from potions and other items (assuming his wealth falls within guidelines). It is indeed teh suks.

Let's compare that to taking a level of fighter, 5 levels of wizard and then the 10 in Eldritch Wizard (which people seem to be considering one of the weakest classes here) to 16 levels of wizard:

You lose 2 levels of caster progression and 2 caster feats.

You gain:
Two fighter feats
More varied, higher Saves
+5BAB
An average of +16 hps

In other words, for a cost of what is basically two levels worth, you gain what would take other classes 5+ levels to gain.

You lose two levels of spell progression and lose two wizard feats. Considering what a soft warrior you will be, you probably would have been better off taking them instead of the fighter feats, but let's call it a push. In exchange, you wind up with slightly better than roguish BAB and slightly less than roguish HP. You're still not solving the armor problem, and I'm not sure what advantage you gain with that BAB over vanilla wizard, other than improving ray accuracy. It's doable, perhaps even effective, but powerful? Not proven.