Warrior-Mage Prestige Classes: which are viable & which are not

[Felon]

Each of the classes have +'s and -'s that based on flavor and likes of the person make interesting characters. If you only look for the min/max'er then very few of these characters are good. Take a concept, develope the character and have fun.

That's a fine approach, but to be clear that's just not what I started this thread for. This is an examanation purely of mechanical viability--"min-maxing" if you will.

 

[Felon]

Don't forget the AC boost that begins at first level.

The AC patch ain't bad at all, but here's the thing: the class is hemoraging offense by losing all that spellcasting progression. It needs an offensive boost to regain ground, and it just doesn't get that. If it got song of celerity more than once, or song of fury at a lower level, I could bump it from "marginal" to "acceptable", but as-is I don't think it cuts. But YMMV.

 

[StGabe]

The odd thing here is, you're championing a fighter/mage build as balanced because it presents exactly that trade-off. So, how is the fighter/mage more balanced than a spellsword? It isn't. It's achieves the same results, just in a sloppier, less consistent way.

I would say that you are exactly wrong -- that it achieves the same result in a far less sloppy and more consistent way. The levels of wizard and fighter are both balanced to be roughly equivalent. The issue is that these PrC's are in no way balanced on a level-per-level basis versus other classes. Just think about if these were base classes. Broken much?

That's 15 HP, and your BAB progression is staggered back pretty hard, with the reprecussions being missing more often, fewer attacks, and inability to qualify for feats that make a much a big difference in a fighter's effectiveness (something taken very much for granted).

And the other side of the coin is that they have some truly very powerful spells. Just the BAB bonus penalty alone is made up for almost instantly by the fact that they will have Bull's Strength running whenever they can (and Cat's Grace, etc. if they can prepare for a really hard finght).

And what you cite as an asset is gaining access to patch up those holes with low-level buff spells that a fighter can get cost-effectively from potions and other items (assuming his wealth falls within guidelines). It is indeed teh suks.

Exactly the problem. The fighter has to spend a significant part of his wealth allotment to use these buffs with anything at all like the frequency with which he can just cast them if he takes some levels of Wizard. With a decent int he can cast the equivalent of a few thousand gold worth of spells per day.

Is it broken good? No. Is it still powerful and viable? Yes. Is it balanced far more consistently than and less sloppily than these Prestige Classes? Absolutely.

You lose two levels of spell progression and lose two wizard feats. Considering what a soft warrior you will be, you probably would have been better off taking them instead of the fighter feats, but let's call it a push.

You will be exactly 3 BAB behind a warrior of the same level. That's not that soft. That is a better BAB than a rogue, cleric or monk of the same level. And you have access to 7th level arcane spells (in this regard you are only 1 level behind a sorceror).

I think your expectations here are just way out of scope.

You're still not solving the armor problem, and I'm not sure what advantage you gain with that BAB over vanilla wizard, other than improving ray accuracy.

One simple way to go with this template essentially creates an incredibly powerful archer/wizard that will be able to cast level 9 spells eventually (if they continue an arcane progression) and will still have enough feats hanging around to throw around arrows almost as well as a ranger or fighter of the same level.

 

[StGabe]

Also, bear in mind that we're talking about the Eldritch Warrior, obviously the weakest of the arcane/fighter combos listed in the original post. I think it is slightly overpowered and I don't think you've argued well otherwise. What does that say about the other ones? The Abjurant Champion is ridiculous and it's a testament to the sloppy playtesting of the Complete books (and 3.5e prestige classes in general).

Just really think about the notion that you should be able to cast 9th levels spells .... and only give up 3BAB on a fighter ... how can anyone really think there is anything like balance there?

 

[Choranzanus]

I have seen some 50/50 fighter/wizard characters and I can safely say that idea about them being underpowered compared to base classes is a complete nonsense. In fact if you want a fighter who just dabbles in magic, then fighter/wizard is probably a best choice (unless you go fighter/duskblade). You must think about arcane spell failure somewhat.

Granted, they are certainly not the most powerful from min/max standpoint, if that is what you are looking for.

Duskblade is mechanically very powerful, and it is a way to go if you want fighter boosted by spells.

 

[wildstarsreach]

I have seen some 50/50 fighter/wizard characters and I can safely say that idea about them being underpowered compared to base classes is a complete nonsense. In fact if you want a fighter who just dabbles in magic, then fighter/wizard is probably a best choice (unless you go fighter/duskblade). You must think about arcane spell failure somewhat.

Granted, they are certainly not the most powerful from min/max standpoint, if that is what you are looking for.

Duskblade is mechanically very powerful, and it is a way to go if you want fighter boosted by spells.

Here, Here. I concur.

Here's an example of the duskblade at 20th. I just took my 5th level character and expanded.

Parlee Oakstream
XP 190000+
CG Medium humanoid (human)
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Init +7; Senses Listen -1, Spot -1
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Orcish
AC 42 (+13 Armor, +6 Shield, +3 Dex, +5 Deflection, +5 Nat Arm), touch 20, flat 39
HP 195 (20 HD)
Fort +20, Ref +14, Will +16
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Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee +5 Greatsword [+33]/+33/+28/+23/+18 (2d6+17+1d6+2d6/15-20 x2+1d10)
Ranged MW composite longbow [+30]/+30/+25/+20/+15 (1d8+10 x3)
Base Atk +20/+15/+10/+5; Grp +28
Atk Options Arcane Channeling (full attack), Quick Cast 4/day, Spell Power +5
Combat Gear none
Duskblade Spells Known (CL 20th, DC 12(15) + spell level)
5th (7/day) – Polar Ray, Disintegrate, Sonic Shield, Hold Monster
4th (9/day) - Fire Shield, Phantasmal Killer, Dispel Magic, Toxic Weapon
3rd (11/day) - Vampiric Touch, Dispeling Touch, Protection from Energy, Greater Magic Weapon
2nd (12/day) - Dimension Hop, Scorching Ray, Animalistic Power, Touch of Idiocy
1st (12/day) - Blade of Blood, Kelgore's Fire Bolt, True Strike, Stand, Shocking Grasp
0th (6/day) - Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead, Ray of frost, Touch of Fatigue
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th)
5(8)/day (total) – dancing lights, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, read magic
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Abilities Str 20 (26), Dex 14 (16), Con 18, Int 16 (22), Wis 8, Cha 12
SQ Armored Mage (Light, Medium, Heavy Shield)
Action Points 10
Feats Weapon Focus Greatsword, Improved Initiative, Combat Casting, Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Improved Critical Greatsword, Improved Toughness, Power Critical Greatsword
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Skills (116 points, ACP -4) Climb (9/+15_11), Concentration (23/+27) (+31 def), Know Arcana (23/+29), Know Local (23/+29), Know Nobility/Royalty (4/+10), Ride (3/+6), Spellcraft (23/+29), Swim (9/+15_11)
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Possessions (76/153/230[153/306/460] – 51) combat gear (–) plus Bedroll, Backpack, 1 large sack and 2 small sacks, flint and steel, 1 water skin, a set of common robes, 1 pair of manacles, 1 pair of boots, 2 Daggers, Quiver w/20 Arrows,

Magic Possessions +5 Mithril Full Platemail of Speed (36k), +5 Mithril Buckler Shield (36K), Composite Longbow +5 w/ +5 Str (25K), Hewards Handy Haversack (5K), +5 Amulet of Nat Armor (25K), +6 Headband of Intellect (36K), Quiver w/20 +5 arrows, +5 Holy Keen Greatsword of Shocking Burst (200K), Belt of Fire Giant Str +6 (36K), Glove of Dexterity +2 (4K), Ring Freedom of Action (25K), +5 Ring of Protection (25K), Manual of Bodily Health +3 (82.5K), Boots of Striding and Springing (5.5K), +5 Cloak of Resistance (25K), Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 (110K)


This is a comparable beatstike with good spell buff and attack.

 

[hong]

Mage Armor (quite decent armor replacement for the first 10 or so levels)
Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, etc.
True Strike
Enlarge
Invisibility
Blur
Mirror Image
Darkness
Resist Elements
Fly
Haste
Keen Edge
Displacement
Major Image

I.e. an incredible arsenal of utility spells.

... which can all be cast, with greater efficacy, by the single-classed wiz or cleric in the party.

A f/w type is a great combo to solo a dungeon with. In a party situation, it's basically a fifth wheel.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Now I see why people like the Abjurant Champion.

How about F1/W6 or S6/AC5/Spellsword 1/EK 7

BA 17, Svs F12/R5/W13, Spell casting 18th w/9th level spells.

I'm sold on this route. This also give the option of a light armor if they so desire. Though the Abjurant Champion benefits will make this moot.

 

[wayne62682]

A PrC that doesn't offer full casting is utter crap because what you're giving up far outweighs what you're getting. A fighter-mage is supposed to be equally good at going toe-to-toe with a monster or slinging spells, otherwise it wouldn't be a fighter-mage. The notion that it's broken to be do it equally well.. well in friendly terms I don't agree at all with it.

Eldritch Knight is considered weak because it doesn't allow you to wear armor and cast spells. That's why 99% of good builds have at least one-level of Spellsword. That's not broken at all. If anything it's too WEAK because you will be a rather pathetic fighter and an even worse caster. You need something to make up for losing out on the spell levels while you multi-class into Fighter for the combat part.

 

[Felix]

Also, bear in mind that we're talking about the Eldritch Warrior...

<snip>

Uh, Eldritch Knight?

Or is there something else you're refering to?