Was AD&D1 designed for game balance?

[billd91]

Damn, how much were you paying for level advancement? IIRC it was like 1500 gp/level for training no? Considering the general consensus is that people gained far more xp from treasure than kills, you should have had lots of gold to flog for training.

1500 per level (current level, not level you're obtaining) per week. When you figure that superior play means 2 weeks of training, it's not cheap. To go from 4th to 5th level, you're cashing in 6000 gp/week or about 12,000 gp. That's cashing in about 6 +1 swords per character training, assuming you're getting full value.
Not cheap at all, particularly when your average fighter moving to 5th level has 18,000 xp and had to spend probably 10-15,000 gp in training costs already.

 

[Hussar]

1500 per level (current level, not level you're obtaining) per week. When you figure that superior play means 2 weeks of training, it's not cheap. To go from 4th to 5th level, you're cashing in 6000 gp/week or about 12,000 gp. That's cashing in about 6 +1 swords per character training, assuming you're getting full value.
Not cheap at all, particularly when your average fighter moving to 5th level has 18,000 xp and had to spend probably 10-15,000 gp in training costs already.

Hang on, I thought good role playing meant you had to train for only one week. It wasn't until you started screwing up that you got punished. Are you saying that you were forcing your players to spend that much cash for superior play?

Ok, well, that would explain why you guys had no money.

But, one question though. Why would you not get full value for selling your magic weapons? Or is this another rule I am unfamiliar with? I didn't know that there were any rules for magic weapons getting cheaper to sell.

Not if the DM is competent.

It is telling, perhaps, that the winner of the Origins tournament in which the G series first appeared did not gain any of the major treasures from G1, being forced instead to use speak with dead to learn where to go next.

(We are not told how they fared in G2, and only that they were unable to complete -- and the judges thought that they would not survive -- G3. They thought they would survive it, however. )


RC

Nice. If the players are skilled (in your own definition of player skill) and get the treasure, then it automatically follows that the DM is incompetent.

There is a world of difference from tournament play and home play. In a tournament, I'm not about to spend a couple of hours of game time stripping down the walls of the dungeon. Then again, I never played with time limits at home. Perhaps you did?

Of course, the existence of a single group that didn't find a lot of the treasure automatically means that ALL groups going through the modules would never find a lot of the treasure.

The truth is, there is over a MILLION gp in those modules. A half assed search of the area will reveal probably about half of that. Or, are you now saying that players will only find maybe 10% of the treasure in an adventure?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Nice. If the players are skilled (in your own definition of player skill) and get the treasure, then it automatically follows that the DM is incompetent.

Strawman.

 

[Votan]

Not if the DM is competent.

It is telling, perhaps, that the winner of the Origins tournament in which the G series first appeared did not gain any of the major treasures from G1, being forced instead to use speak with dead to learn where to go next.

I am actually curious about this "not if the DM is competent bit", myself. It has been about 20 years since we played G1-G2-G3 and then all died off in the D series (I read about the Demonweb pits after the fact as our hardy band of giant killers was annihilated by the underdark).

But, when reading the modules, I remember seeing treaure we missed but not tons of it (especially in the Hill Giant portion where we stuck around so long the DM improvised a raid to get us moving).

It's possible we had an incompetent DM. I don't think so -- he made the game fun and had no trouble with a fearsome TPK later on (some sort of energy draining lances weakened us enough to get finished off). We had some house rules (our wizards cast like sorcerers rather than memorize spells). Replacements happened -- in particular I hated the Elf F7/W 11 I had who could not advance.

But we sure got at least half of the treasure. We were doing worse in the underdark because the random encounters were tougher and we could not fall back and rest so easily.

I don't want to dismiss your point of view nor are duelling ancedotes very helpful but I think you might have a high threshold for DM competence if getting half the treasure is evidence (and I know we got more than half as the gotcha moments only really showed up in the D-series).

 

[Bullgrit]

I am actually curious about this "not if the DM is competent bit", myself.

Yeah. Some consider the DM an antagonist whose job it is to keep the PCs from defeating monsters, finding treasure, and advancing. So a competent DM in this vein is one who sees PCs killed often, most treasures unfound, and advancement glacially slow.

Bullgrit

 

[Raven Crowking]

Votan,

Let me ask you. Imagine that you find all of the treasure in G1. How much does it weigh? Now let us assume that you find all of the treasure in G2. Again, how much does it weigh? Finally, the same question for G3.

Of the three modules, G1 assumes the closest route to civilization. Assuming that you are not going directly through the module series (in which case, you need to carry all the treasure from G1, G2, and G3 at the same time), how do you recover it all?

On top of that, complete treasure recovery requires finishing the module before the giants have the chance to escape with their treasure into the next module of the series. Eventually, you might discover a bigger load of treasure in G3 (if subsequent giants escape), but not only is G3 now reinforced, but you have the problem of transporting said loot.

If the DM has been so generous with bags of holding and the like that you have no problem with this, I call the DM incompetent. If the DM handwaves this, and then complains because the module gave away too much treasure, again the DM is incompetent.

In like manner, the hoard of a draon could destroy a campaign if the treasure of Smaug, in THE HOBBIT, were to be used as an example of what such a trove should contain. Not so for the wise DM! He or she will place a few choice and portable items, some not-so-choice because they are difficult to carry off, and finally top (or rather botton and top) the whole with mounds, piles, and layers of copper pieces, silver, etc. There will be much there, but even the cleverest of players will be more than hard put to figure out a way to garner the bulk of it after driving off, subduing, or slaying the treasure's guardian. Many other avaricious monsters are eagerly awaiting the opportunity to help themselves to an unguarded dragon hoard, and news travels fast. Who will stay behind to mind the coins while the rest of the party goes off to dispose of the better part of the loot? Not their henchmen! What a problem . . .

Not so the wise author, either! What Gygax suggests as problems with a D&D dragon's hoard are exactly the problems that Bilbo & Company are forced to deal with after Smaug's death -- slaying the dragon is not even close to the end of the matter.

Player skill is not merely defeating the guardians, and not merely locating the treasure -- it is also knowing what is smart to take and smart to leave behind. DMing skill is not merely reading a module text or running combats, but it using the rules to ensure that the campaign milieu stays within the golden mean between Monty Haul and the Killer Dungeon. The DM who says "I'm not going to enforce encumbrance or logistics because it makes things too hard for the players" and then rewards the characters as though logistics were taken into account has only himself to blame.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yeah. Some consider the DM an antagonist whose job it is to keep the PCs from defeating monsters, finding treasure, and advancing. So a competent DM in this vein is one who sees PCs killed often, most treasures unfound, and advancement glacially slow.

Bullgrit

...yeah. See moderator warning below, please. ~ PCat



Straw man.



Par for the course, and fully in keeping with your agenda.

 

[Votan]

Votan,

Let me ask you. Imagine that you find all of the treasure in G1. How much does it weigh? Now let us assume that you find all of the treasure in G2. Again, how much does it weigh? Finally, the same question for G3.

Of the three modules, G1 assumes the closest route to civilization. Assuming that you are not going directly through the module series (in which case, you need to carry all the treasure from G1, G2, and G3 at the same time), how do you recover it all?

On top of that, complete treasure recovery requires finishing the module before the giants have the chance to escape with their treasure into the next module of the series. Eventually, you might discover a bigger load of treasure in G3 (if subsequent giants escape), but not only is G3 now reinforced, but you have the problem of transporting said loot.

If the DM has been so generous with bags of holding and the like that you have no problem with this, I call the DM incompetent. If the DM handwaves this, and then complains because the module gave away too much treasure, again the DM is incompetent.
RC

Well, remember we are going back 20 years in memory so not all details are sharp (sadly, old age gets all of us). But I do remember both a train of pack mules (and the screams/annoyance when the mules got killed) as well as frequent use of teleport. We also had an elf F/MU early on (that I was playing) who could also teleport. There was also a psionist (dragon mag) and some melee types.

Things went terribly wrong when after the elf died (on a teleport, if I recall correctly -- no joke, only a 2% chance) and was replaced (with the very sad and sub-optimal choice of a monk -- boy was I not thinking). We tehn encountered some silly Drow that could drain up to 4 levels from the wizard (per hit!!!!).

Without using magic cleverly it all went wrong. We needed to advance the psionist (who was really close) so he could cast Restoration (by reaching a high enough level to have that power). That was a terrible mistake.

Coming back as a non-caster was a bad idea on my part (especially as I came back a few levels lower than the fighter [who I think was a fighter/theif but memory is fuzzy] and Paladin so was incompetent on the front lines). There was also some sort of Druid type but I didn't know that person well (but I think they did the pack train).

I'm not 100% sure why we were not using teleport without error as I think that was in the PHB but maybe the wizard was hoarding spells. He was definitely the highest level party member before he got drained.

 

[Hussar]

As I recall, in at least one of the G modules, there's a Portable Hole.

A 10x10x10 space with zero weight holds a HELL of a lot of treasure. Plus, there were more than a few bags of holding in the module as well.

Never minding, of course, the multiple rings of three wishes that can be found in the modules.

Of course, that ignores teleport as well as Leomund's Secret Chest and various other methods as well.

Getting the treasure home was never really all that hard IMO.

But, isn't it funny how the song has now changed from "The players will never find a majority of the treasure" to "The players will never get that treasure back to civilization". These goalposts just keep moving further and further back.

 

[Umbran]

Straw man.



Par for the course, and fully in keeping with your agenda.

Once again, it is time to note - if you don't like what someone has to say, you are free to ignore it. Or, you can counter the argument with detailed logic in a civil and respectful manner. But this getting dismissive, snarky and accusatory is not what we want to see around here.