Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

 

[Guest 6801328]

And yet they lowered him anyway and didn't try to persuade Thorin. The flaw was in them, even if it was less strong than in Thorin.

I'll agree the flaw lurks in all (or most) of them.

Not sure I'll agree that following orders and helping to lower him to safety and freedom is evidence of that flaw, though...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Why? It's not as if they've ever been in this position before, so this sort of flaw would not have ever come up and destroyed them. You're also presuming that they don't stubbornly (like dwarves) believe that they can resist the armies of Sauron by holing up in the lonely mountain or another stronghold. Just because it's suicide doesn't mean they know or believe that it is.

They're more stubborn, true.

But for them, long lived like the elves, the events of the past encounters with Sauron are fresher than they are for the humans & hobbits. Fewer generations have passed. No one save the elves can look back with fewer generations worth of distortion and the fog of history to understand how and why he lost before...and what has changed in the interim.

And, as I pointed out, it isn't just the dwarves who would have to be so fatally dimwitted to so grossly underestimate the threat Sauron presents at the time of the events in LotR. The elves, longer lived and only slightly less capable of creating magic items, would ALSO have to make the same error in judgement if they didn't offer whatever they had at their disposal to help insure the success of the Fellowship.

So, still not buying into your view of the number of magic weapons available in Middle Eatth.

 

[pemerton]

I think this discussion about offering help to the Fellowship in the form of magic items belongs to the same genre as those who think that the command "Fly, you fools!", as Gandalf was pulled down by the Balrog, was an instruction to travel to the eagles' eyries and take a lift to Mount Doom. Namely, it misses the point.

Defeating Sauron isn't just (or even primarily) a procedural or practical problem. It is a spiritual problem. The problem has a certain origin, and to be overcome must be resolved in a certain way. Loading up on magic items is no more a part of that solution than hitching a lift with eagles.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Defeating Sauron isn't just (or even primarily) a procedural or practical problem. It is a spiritual problem. The problem has a certain origin, and to be overcome must be resolved in a certain way.

Agreed.

Loading up on magic items is no more a part of that solution than hitching a lift with eagles.

Here, we part ways. If you can't complete the journey to your goal, you can't complete the mission.

They have a goal which involves a lot of travel through regions fraught with hazard. While being festooned in all the magic items you can carry might not help you defeat Sauron himself, depending on their exact nature, they very likely GREATLY improve your odds of completing that journey to whatever the final confrontation- or lack thereof- may entail. It makes no difference if you're prepared to defeat Sauron if you're ill equipped to get past whatever orcs, goblins, wolves, frostbite, dehydration, starvation, etc. lie betwixt & between.

 

[pemerton]

If you can't complete the journey to your goal, you can't complete the mission.

So why not use eagles?

And what caused the problem with Sauron in the first place? In part, an excessive concern with the power that might be granted by magic items!

 

[Guest 6801328]

So why not use eagles?

And what caused the problem with Sauron in the first place? In part, an excessive concern with the power that might be granted by magic items!

Yup.

If Dannyalcatraz's position were correct (that magic items are exceedingly rare, and that free folk would willingly hand out those magic items to defeat evil) then they wouldn't have left Glamdring in Thorin's tomb. They'd be using it.

But people in Middle Earth seem to view possession of physical objects a bit differently. Maybe part of Feanor's fatal flaw is that he was possessive of things in a way that was alien to others.

 

[Marandahir]

I've read the Unfinished Tales. It's one of my favorite collections of Tolkien's work. I don't recall specifically, however, the mention of Gandalf's vassalage to Manwe or Varda. Is it mentioned there?

Yes it is. I just re-read it because you cast doubt on my recollection. But yes. The Unfinished Tales are broken and convoluted narratives, of course, since they're essentially the unfinished texts that Christopher found on various topics. But one of the texts he includes there speaks to the Istari being sent by specific Valar.

The Valar decide 3 messengers shall be sent, and Aulë suggests Curumo (Saruman), while Oromë sends Alatar (a Blue Wizard). Manwë then asks Olórin (Gandalf) to go with them, even though Olórin doubts his abilities and fears Sauron. It's Varda who realises that Olórin shall not be third but shall be the greatest of them all, and Curumo remembers this prophecy.

Then Yavanna, the wife of Aulë, begs Curumo to take Aiwendil (Radagast) with him, and Alatar takes Pallando (the other Blue Wizard) as a friend with him, at the request of either Oromë or of Mandos and Nienna (unclear which).

 

[Maxperson]

They're more stubborn, true.

But for them, long lived like the elves, the events of the past encounters with Sauron are fresher than they are for the humans & hobbits. Fewer generations have passed. No one save the elves can look back with fewer generations worth of distortion and the fog of history to understand how and why he lost before...and what has changed in the interim.

Morgoth. Sauron fought the elves and men.

And, as I pointed out, it isn't just the dwarves who would have to be so fatally dimwitted to so grossly underestimate the threat Sauron presents at the time of the events in LotR. The elves, longer lived and only slightly less capable of creating magic items, would ALSO have to make the same error in judgement if they didn't offer whatever they had at their disposal to help insure the success of the Fellowship.

The elves are far fewer than they used to be and most of their best weapons and smiths are dead and lost. They don't have the stores of the dwarves who are relatively untouched. Morgoth was focused on the elves, not the dwarves.

 

[Maxperson]

So why not use eagles?

And what caused the problem with Sauron in the first place? In part, an excessive concern with the power that might be granted by magic items!

Because the eye could see a very, very long way and eagles would be seen long before they got to Mordor. Sauron had many servants who could fly, so the odds of failure by flight were great. Sneaking, however...

 

[Maxperson]

Yes it is. I just re-read it because you cast doubt on my recollection. But yes. The Unfinished Tales are broken and convoluted narratives, of course, since they're essentially the unfinished texts that Christopher found on various topics. But one of the texts he includes there speaks to the Istari being sent by specific Valar.

The Valar decide 3 messengers shall be sent, and Aulë suggests Curumo (Saruman), while Oromë sends Alatar (a Blue Wizard). Manwë then asks Olórin (Gandalf) to go with them, even though Olórin doubts his abilities and fears Sauron. It's Varda who realises that Olórin shall not be third but shall be the greatest of them all, and Curumo remembers this prophecy.

Then Yavanna, the wife of Aulë, begs Curumo to take Aiwendil (Radagast) with him, and Alatar takes Pallando (the other Blue Wizard) as a friend with him, at the request of either Oromë or of Mandos and Nienna (unclear which).

I went and looked as well and noted that passage. I also noted, though, that it was never said that he was a vassal. Manwe asked Olorin to go, but that doesn't mean that he was a vassal.