Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

 

[pemerton]

So what got us the MAD doctrine? Possession of nuclear weapons and fear of their proliferation. Response? Make more. Yet they ended WW2 a lot faster and with less loss of life than conventional forces would have. They had a time and place when they were the tool for the job.

In Middle Earth, what happens if Sauron wins makes using magic to defeat him a calculated risk worth taking.

I don't want to venture too far into territory at the margins of board rules.

But I'll go this far: of English philosophers with whose work I'm familiar, the one whose moral outlook is perhaps closest to Tolkien's in some key respects is Elizabeth Anscombe. In various of her papers - I am thinking especially of "Modern Moral Philosophy" and "War and Murder"- she launches a scathing attack on the sort of consequentialist reasoning that underpins MAD.

The idea that wrongdoing is permissible when it will save the world is not universally accepted, and I have doubts whether Tolkien would agree. And I don't think such an idea would fit within the moral framework of his fiction either.

Gandalf seems to have believed (correctly, it seems) that the hobbits were the key for more than purely tactical reasons. "Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker."

To the extent that this is true - and I think it clearly is, as the whole of JRRT's writing is infused with a notion of providence - it speaks equally against the idea that you would load up the Fellowship with magical items.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

The idea that wrongdoing is permissible when it will save the world is not universally accepted, and I have doubts whether Tolkien would agree. And I don't think such an idea would fit within the moral framework of his fiction either.

I think this is pretty certain - Tolkien wrote about LOTR not being an allegory of WWII and that if it were, it would have been decided by the Free Peoples using the Ring against Sauron, etc.

--

But I don't think that necessarily argues against the use of "magic" items (in the sense of the Elvish items) by the Fellowship. Galadriel makes it quite clear that the Elvish "magic" is something so utterly different from "the deceits of the Enemy" that it baffles her that humans/hobbits use the same words for both.

Elvish magic is tied to art and craftsmanship while Sauron's is tied to domination and compulsion. The Istari have 'magical' or angelic powers by nature, but are forbidden to use them to compel others or in direct conflict with Sauron - Saruman breaks this rule and falls.

It would clearly be wrong and ultimately self-defeating to use the One Ring against Sauron or build Orc armies like Saruman tried, but the Elves using their specially-crafted weapons etc. doesn't seem problematic.

--

I also don't really see any lack of 'magical' items on the Fellowship's part.

Gandalf has Narya, the Ring of Fire, and Glamdring (and his staff may also be magical). Aragorn has Anduril once it's reforged. The four hobbits have the barrow-blades, and Frodo gets Sting, another powerful First Age Elvish blade.

They're also given lembas, Elvish cloaks, and Elvish ropes at Lothlorien, which have 'special' properties even if not flashy.

Gimli's axe and Legolas's bow don't have names or any observed special properties, but they are presumably Dwarvish and Elvish craft respectively, so who knows...

 

[Guest 6801328]

Sauron can control weather (the Darkness/Dawnless Day), and I think the Wise knew this (Elrond had been involved in the last war against Sauron, and even if he hadn't demonstrated the ability before, Gandalf would have known what kinds of powers Maiar would be likely to have).

Also, the Nazgul themselves were not yet flying, but that doesn't mean the Wise wouldn't have known that Sauron had access to flying creatures.

You're right, it doesn't preclude such knowledge. But neither is there any evidence that they do know any such thing. If we want to start including as valid anything that wasn't explicitly prohibited by Tolkien, this debate is at risk of wandering off into bizarre territory. (Lightsabers? Tolkien didn't say that the elves couldn't make lightsabers, did he?)

Also, Gandalf seems to have believed (correctly, it seems) that the hobbits were the key for more than purely tactical reasons. "Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker."

Yes, this is a very sensible point and I'll be getting back to it shortly. But I'll point out that a Hobbit riding on an Eagle would still be Hobbits playing a role.

Summon weather to kill them. Use flying monsters, with or without Nazgul riders.

But even if Sauron had no anti-air or flying capability, just being detected would have doomed the whole thing. All Sauron had to do was put a guard on the Cracks of Doom.

This is silly. He's just going to snap his fingers and suddenly there's going to be a violent storm...where, exactly? From LotR:

and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash

In other words, it never occurred to Sauron that anybody would try to destroy the ring. So if he noticed some giant Eagles flying into his domain he would think...what? And remember, the only reason he became aware of the magnitude of his folly was that Frodo actually put the ring on.

And did he summon a tornado to suck Frodo out of the doorway of Sammath Naur? Did he command lightning to strike him dead? No...he sent his Ringwraiths.

Let's face it, the Eagles would have worked brilliantly.

So why didn't Elrond and Gandalf ask them to? Because...big shocker coming here...they aren't real people making optimal decisions. Tolkien didn't have his characters do any such thing because the story would have sucked. The only rationale we need is the one you stated: Gandalf knew that Bilbo was 'meant' to find the Ring, and that somehow Hobbits would play an important role in this. So we don't need to explain why the Eagles weren't used, or why magical weapons weren't handed out. The answer is simply that doing so wouldn't have been as good of a story.

EDIT: And before I forget...the argument that Frodo was going to be able to sneak in because he was stealthy is nonsense: Hobbits going into Mordor alone was never part of the plan. They sent some decidedly non-sneaky companions with him. So, yeah, it turned out that way but you can't argue that the Eagles weren't utilized because they would be too obvious, so they sent Aragorn and Boromir and Gandalf to walk in instead. Helloooooo????

 

[Maxperson]

You're right, it doesn't preclude such knowledge. But neither is there any evidence that they do know any such thing. If we want to start including as valid anything that wasn't explicitly prohibited by Tolkien, this debate is at risk of wandering off into bizarre territory. (Lightsabers? Tolkien didn't say that the elves couldn't make lightsabers, did he?)

Since it doesn't say one way or the other, we are left to look at the books. Sauron, Olorin, Galadriel, and so on all lived together in Valinor. The spent ages living together. Sauron rebelled against Valinor with Morgoth and fought against the elves for thousands of years and against Valinor when it came for Morgoth. They knew the sorts of creatures Sauron had access to.

Is it more likely that they know what Sauron has and can do, or more likely they don't? You're assuming one way and we're assuming the other, but it's far more likely that we are correct.

This is silly. He's just going to snap his fingers and suddenly there's going to be a violent storm...where, exactly? From LotR:

Suddenly? There is no suddenly? He has many hours to bring the storm up while the eagles fly towards him in full view.

In other words, it never occurred to Sauron that anybody would try to destroy the ring. So if he noticed some giant Eagles flying into his domain he would think...what? And remember, the only reason he became aware of the magnitude of his folly was that Frodo actually put the ring on.

And did he summon a tornado to suck Frodo out of the doorway of Sammath Naur? Did he command lightning to strike him dead? No...he sent his Ringwraiths.

He's a smart cookie. When eagles and the ring start flying for several hours towards Mount Doom, he's going to figure it out and have plenty of time to defend the place.

Let's face it, the Eagles would have worked brilliantly.

If by brilliant you mean die in a flash of fire and lightning, you are correct!

So why didn't Elrond and Gandalf ask them to? Because...big shocker coming here...they aren't real people making optimal decisions. Tolkien didn't have his characters do any such thing because the story would have sucked. The only rationale we need is the one you stated: Gandalf knew that Bilbo was 'meant' to find the Ring, and that somehow Hobbits would play an important role in this. So we don't need to explain why the Eagles weren't used, or why magical weapons weren't handed out. The answer is simply that doing so wouldn't have been as good of a story.

And because the eagles would automatically fail. Also, because the Eagles are servants of Manwe and the Valar refused to go against Sauron directly or allow any of their servants but the Istari aid Middle Earth. The excludes the eagles from even attempting the failure that would be their aid.

EDIT: And before I forget...the argument that Frodo was going to be able to sneak in because he was stealthy is nonsense: Hobbits going into Mordor alone was never part of the plan. They sent some decidedly non-sneaky companions with him. So, yeah, it turned out that way but you can't argue that the Eagles weren't utilized because they would be too obvious, so they sent Aragorn and Boromir and Gandalf to walk in instead. Helloooooo????

A ranger of the north is very sneaky, as is a wizard maia. Boromir was undoubtedly taught the ability to sneak in his training. 4 hobbits are very sneaky. An elf is very sneaky. The only one who really would have difficulty is Gimli. And it was said that it was a fool's hope. The odds were long, but they were better than flying directly into Sauron's grasp.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Is it more likely that they know what Sauron has and can do, or more likely they don't? You're assuming one way and we're assuming the other, but it's far more likely that we are correct.

No, it is far more likely that *I* am correct!!!! Wait...that's not really a useful argument, is it? You need to learn the difference between blue sky conjecture and defensible argument.

Suddenly? There is no suddenly? He has many hours to bring the storm up while the eagles fly towards him in full view.

How fast can the Eagles fly? At 50 miles an hour it would take an hour or so, assuming they came in from due north of Mt. Doom. How long before Sauron noticed? How long before he guessed what they were up to?

He's a smart cookie. When eagles and the ring start flying for several hours towards Mount Doom, he's going to figure it out and have plenty of time to defend the place.

News flash: when nobody is wearing the Ring, he can't detect it.

And because the eagles would automatically fail. Also, because the Eagles are servants of Manwe and the Valar refused to go against Sauron directly or allow any of their servants but the Istari aid Middle Earth. The excludes the eagles from even attempting the failure that would be their aid.

Ah, ok. I'm glad to see you are abandoning the super-silly weather argument and falling back on this time-tested one. Much harder to argue against it, of course. Other than that if that was really the reason (instead of simple narrative fiat by the author) then presumably somebody would have suggested it at the Council of Elrond, at which point Elrond or Gandalf would have explained the cosmology. But that didn't happen. Anyway, I don't really want to debate this much improved argument.

A ranger of the north is very sneaky, as is a wizard maia. Boromir was undoubtedly taught the ability to sneak in his training. 4 hobbits are very sneaky. An elf is very sneaky. The only one who really would have difficulty is Gimli. And it was said that it was a fool's hope. The odds were long, but they were better than flying directly into Sauron's grasp.

Oh, drat, we're back to the "eagles would be detected and electrocuted" line of...um...I hate to say "reasoning".

The very presence of a Dunadan and a Maia is going to be a beacon, regardless of how physically stealthy they are. Especially if either of them actually uses any of their abilities to, you know, fend off orcs or something.

Boromir was "undoubtedly" taught how to be sneaky? As a scion of Gondor??!?!!? Are you maybe confusing the line of Stewards with a clan of ninja from another milieu?

And yet you think that Eagles...silent hunters...can't be stealthy. You know, fly low, hug the terrain? For only an hour, rather than days on end?

Question for you: do you really believe what you are arguing, or is this maybe a case of "Well, I said it on the Internet so now I have dig in and refuse to budge." 'Cause this is one of the screwiest things I've read lately.

 

[Maxperson]

No, it is far more likely that *I* am correct!!!! Wait...that's not really a useful argument, is it? You need to learn the difference between blue sky conjecture and defensible argument.

I provided evidence that we are more likely right. This response refutes none of that.

How fast can the Eagles fly? At 50 miles an hour it would take an hour or so, assuming they came in from due north of Mt. Doom. How long before Sauron noticed? How long before he guessed what they were up to?

30 mph, and the might not be able to get over those mountains. At their size, they can't fly as high as smaller eagles and those can only go about 10,000 feet. The rockies are 14k feet.

News flash: when nobody is wearing the Ring, he can't detect it.

News flash! He's still not a moron. You don't go to Mount Doom to sight see. There's only one reason to go there and he's going to realize it.

Ah, ok. I'm glad to see you are abandoning the super-silly weather argument and falling back on this time-tested one. Much harder to argue against it, of course. Other than that if that was really the reason (instead of simple narrative fiat by the author) then presumably somebody would have suggested it at the Council of Elrond, at which point Elrond or Gandalf would have explained the cosmology. But that didn't happen. Anyway, I don't really want to debate this much improved argument.

Why not? It defeats your claim that eagles would work. If you don't want to debate it, does that mean you are conceding the debate to me?

The very presence of a Dunadan and a Maia is going to be a beacon, regardless of how physically stealthy they are. Especially if either of them actually uses any of their abilities to, you know, fend off orcs or something.

Correct for the Maia, who is wise enough to leave prior. Not about the Dunedan, though. He's not going to be a beacon like that.

Boromir was "undoubtedly" taught how to be sneaky? As a scion of Gondor??!?!!? Are you maybe confusing the line of Stewards with a clan of ninja from another milieu?

His brother is head of the rangers. Being able to be stealthy is very probably standard training for Gondor.

 

[Guest 6801328]

To quote Bootsy Collins: "Y'all are crazy, man."

Stick with the argument about the Eagles not being allowed to intervene. People will laugh less.

EDIT: I was curious, so I did look it up: normal eagles can fly horizontally up to 80 mph, diving up to 150 mph. You are free to interpret Tolkien in your own way, of course (I mean, you've been pretty creative with it so far so don't stop now) but in my version of Tolkien giant Eagles are more capable than normal eagles, not less.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_by_flight_speed

 

[mflayermonk]

In the attached cartoon-there is no gaming table or dice. Might be interesting insight into the early history of RPGs.

 

[Maxperson]

To quote Bootsy Collins: "Y'all are crazy, man."

Stick with the argument about the Eagles not being allowed to intervene. People will laugh less.

EDIT: I was curious, so I did look it up: normal eagles can fly horizontally up to 80 mph, diving up to 150 mph. You are free to interpret Tolkien in your own way, of course (I mean, you've been pretty creative with it so far so don't stop now) but in my version of Tolkien giant Eagles are more capable than normal eagles, not less.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_by_flight_speed

That's a burst speed which can't be maintained for any significant length of time and doesn't include passengers. Average flying speed, again with no passengers, is around 30 mph.

 

[steeldragons]

ugh.

So that Gandalf guy, huh? Ain't he a character! So much accomplished for a 5th level wizard. 6th tops. And in only 2000 "lives of men" or so.

Love the beard. Funky hat. Magic ring.

He's got the life, that one, I tells ya.