Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

 

[Guest 6801328]

If you don't want to debate it, does that mean you are conceding the debate to me?

You know, I really have to respond to this as well. Your answer here is pretty much why I've lost interest in discussing this with you (and why the Internet in general is a cesspit of blather).

You've been making an argument that they didn't simply ask the Eagles to carry Frodo to Mount Doom because Sauron would have become instantly aware of the Eagle and cast a high level Lightning Bolt spell from 40 miles away. I've been saying that doesn't make any sense. You offer plausible conjecture, and then state as fact that this is obviously more true than other plausible conjecture. How is that useful?

Then you introduce a new-old argument (new for you, older than the hills) that the reason is because the Eagles are prohibited from interfering in the conflicts in Middle Earth. Ok; I think that argument is unnecessary but it's not silly. And I'll accept it as a better argument. Then again I'm not suggesting that the Eagles should have gone, or that the fact they didn't go breaks the plot, or whatever. I'm just saying that "Eagles flying far more risky than Hobbits walking" is crazy. So I'll cede the point about servants of Manwe and not start a second surreal debate with you.

And how do you respond? You immediately want to know if you've won.

So not only do you not seem to understand what you're debating about, but you can't even accept a ceded point. Which suggests to me you might also be incapable of acknowledging a valid point, because in your world that might be tantamount to admitting defeat.

An attitude which is apparently a contagious disease on the Internet, and a source of endless frustration for those of us who...even if sometimes we get snarky and enjoy debating with the gloves off...are also willing to say, "Oh, hey, that was a good point. I'll have to rethink this." An attitude of open inquiry basically never gets reciprocated. Without naming names (because doing so would finally rouse the moderators from their unwatchful slumber) some of the most prolific posters here (and in RPG sites in general; saying something about this population) are especially guilty of this attitude. And some have mastered the art of "plausibly deniable denigration", flying inches below the radar of the TOS.

I, on the other hand, call spades spades and frequently get tsk-tsk'd by the mods for it.

What I wouldn't give for a forum like ElitistJerks, where "moderation" is anything but. If anybody out there wants to start such a forum let me know and I'll be a loyal...and courteous...participant.

Yeah, I can be a jerk in my posts, too. I'm human. But I try (I may not be perfect) to only respond aggressively to anti-social attitude, not to incorrect facts or divergent opinion. Yes, I "white knight". Funny that it's a pejorative around here.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Elrond: Mr. Anderson....

Now I'm picturing Elrond wearing sunglasses and an earpiece.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

You're right, it doesn't preclude such knowledge. But neither is there any evidence that they do know any such thing.

It's not explicitly stated, but I'd expect Elrond and Gandalf to know Sauron's powers and resources quite well. Elrond was involved in fighting Sauron in the Second Age, and Gandalf

This is silly. He's just going to snap his fingers and suddenly there's going to be a violent storm...where, exactly? From LotR:

In other words, it never occurred to Sauron that anybody would try to destroy the ring. So if he noticed some giant Eagles flying into his domain he would think...what?

Even if he didn't realize it was an attempt to destroy the Ring, Sauron would still act against Great Eagle intrusion, since he knows perfectly well that the Giant Eagles are associated with Manwe and thus his enemies. He might see it a spy mission, but why would that keep him from swatting them out of the air?

Sauron didn't think anyone would ever try to destroy the ring because its power of obsession is too great, and so he didn't guard the Cracks of Doom specifically. But Mordor itself is still guarded! Sauron does consider the possibility of enemy forces attacking.

(And the Eagles fear Sauron, I'd expect. The Hobbit says they avoid going near men with bows; I really doubt they would willingly go to Mordor.)

And did he summon a tornado to suck Frodo out of the doorway of Sammath Naur? Did he command lightning to strike him dead? No...he sent his Ringwraiths.

Let's face it, the Eagles would have worked brilliantly.

Mmm, I don't think so. Tolkien magic isn't D&D magic. I agree that Sauron can't do it "at a finger snap", and he may not be able to target it very precisely. But we know he can affect weather since he does it in the book.

And stopping the Eagles wouldn't require careful targeting. They are large flying creatures thus visible a long way off, and a generalized hurricane over the whole area would stop them quite well.

EDIT: And before I forget...the argument that Frodo was going to be able to sneak in because he was stealthy is nonsense: Hobbits going into Mordor alone was never part of the plan. They sent some decidedly non-sneaky companions with him. So, yeah, it turned out that way but you can't argue that the Eagles weren't utilized because they would be too obvious, so they sent Aragorn and Boromir and Gandalf to walk in instead. Helloooooo????

Certainly they weren't expected to split up as early on as they did (because Boromir), but I thought that Aragorn and co. weren't expected to be there for the final leg, just for most of the dangers en route.

Didn't they need Aragorn (and presumably Boromir would have been there if he hadn't died) to lead the military diversion for Sauron?

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Gandalf would not have ventured into Mordor (too close to direct confrontation with Sauron) and without him, eight people on foot would still have been far stealthier than giant flying creatures you can see from dozens of miles away even with normal human vision.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

How fast can the Eagles fly?

Googling it, average speed for a Golden Eagle is like 30 mph. They are very fast in short bursts, but that's not endurance flying.

Also, these guys are mostly soarers, so that means exploiting air currents, so not necessarily straight-line.

How long before Sauron noticed?

Not long. Given that one was able to carry Gandalf (man-sized) up into mountains, they must be huge, perhaps the size of large pterosaurs.

Large objects in open sky are incredibly visible, and Sauron's magic red eye thing is presumably far better than human vision, or what would be the point?

I wouldn't be willing to risk flying high anywhere where the curvature of the planet didn't block sight lines to Mordor.

EDIT:

How long before he guessed what they were up to?

Doesn't matter. He has no reason not to kill Great Eagles (enemies) on general principles.

And yet you think that Eagles...silent hunters...can't be stealthy. You know, fly low, hug the terrain?

They're capable of it, but that sounds way less efficient than soaring. How long per day are they going to be able to do it? It would take forever if you could only do it five or ten miles at a time... probably not any faster than horses.

EDIT: I'd accept that it might have been a reasonable trade-off of risks to use the eagles to bypass the Misty Mountains (and thus Caradhras/Moria). But not much closer to Mordor than that.

 

[Hriston]

Much of the discussion of riding great eagles to Mordor presupposes the eagles would allow themselves to be used this way. I see nothing in the stories to suggest this is true. The two times in the tales I can think of where they are willing to carry the protagonists to safety, they only do so for a relatively short journey. Gandalf, for example, after a great eagle, Gwaihir I think, helped him escape from Orthanc, still had to travel to Edoras to obtain a mount. The eagles weren't willing to take him all the way to the Shire, even though he had dire information related to the treason of Saruman. Basically, the great eagles did not consider themselves to be beasts of burden and may in fact have been incapable of bearing passengers for a journey as long as travelling from Rivendell to Mt. Doom.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Night.

Flying.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Much of the discussion of riding great eagles to Mordor presupposes the eagles would allow themselves to be used this way. I see nothing in the stories to suggest this is true. The two times in the tales I can think of where they are willing to carry the protagonists to safety, they only do so for a relatively short journey. Gandalf, for example, after a great eagle, Gwaihir I think, helped him escape from Orthanc, still had to travel to Edoras to obtain a mount. The eagles weren't willing to take him all the way to the Shire, even though he had dire information related to the treason of Saruman. Basically, the great eagles did not consider themselves to be beasts of burden and may in fact have been incapable of bearing passengers for a journey as long as travelling from Rivendell to Mt. Doom.

Yeah, I can agree with this, too.

I'm not suggesting they should have used the Eagles, albeit mostly because it would have been a very short book. I just think it's ludicrous to think that Eagles would have had worse odds than Hobbits on foot. If that's the reason they didn't use the Eagles then it would have been brought up at the council then discussed and decided against. But it wasn't even brought up.

 

[Hriston]

Yeah, I can agree with this, too.

I'm not suggesting they should have used the Eagles, albeit mostly because it would have been a very short book. I just think it's ludicrous to think that Eagles would have had worse odds than Hobbits on foot. If that's the reason they didn't use the Eagles then it would have been brought up at the council then discussed and decided against. But it wasn't even brought up.

I also have to point out that Tolkien, himself, for 'story reasons', absolutely loathed the idea of having the eagles carry the protagonists more than what he had them do in the story as is evidenced in his critique of an early draft of the Saul Zaentz Company's screenplay of the LR. In it, the screenwriter had the Fellowship riding great eagles from Rivendell to Lothlorien, which was represented as a castle in the clouds. Needless to say, the Professor was appalled at the cheapening of a narrative device that he felt should only have been used for dramatic effect.

 

[Maxperson]

Now I'm picturing Elrond wearing sunglasses and an earpiece.

And now my job is done.

 

[Maxperson]

Night.

Flying.

Eagles.

Day.

Fliers.

Good way to get them dead making them fly at night when the evil power that be can see and they can't see very well any longer. The Eye would have no difficult spotting them at night. Nor would the flying defenders that rip them from the sky.