Was I asking too much?

[Thanee]

The only way I can see them winning this is, if the wizard can throw some well-placed fireballs to soften them up and possibly kill most of the goblins, and at least one of the bigger threats to fail the very easy save against Tasha's.

With those classes, I would definitely expect the party to lose there.

The barghest *alone* is an appropriate (not too hard) challenge for them!

Bye
Thanee

 

[S'mon]

For the record, I was using Grim Tale's method to determine the difficulty. It is based on squaring the CR to get the power. My calculation went as follows:
Party Power is 3 x 5^2=75
Opposition Power is 4^2+4^2+6 x 2^2=56
56/75=0.7466. The equipment MAY increase that somewhat, but it seemed like a hard encounter but not one that should result in TPK. Especially since 2 goblins didn't follow the party.

I like the simplicity of the GT method. But perhaps I should reconsider using it...

I suspect the problem is that the Upper_Krust/GT method assumes the PC-5 and the enemy-4 _really are a 5 and a 4_. But the WoTC CRs are not assigned like that, in fact U_K reckons they're about 1/3 too low, ie a CR 4 barghest is actually about equal to a single _6th level_ PC. So your premise was flawed.

It was more like PC Power 75, NPC Power 36+36+24 = 86. And the PCs are weak classes in this configuration, only the Wizard-5 is a "real" CR 5, typical Rogue more like CR 4 & Bard in 3-man team CR 3 I'd say, for PC group power 25+16+9 = 50. Maybe higher, but definitely not 86.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

We are continuing the campaign with a dfferent party. The PCs were safeguarding an artifact, so now tha bad guys have it and it is up to a brave bunch of heroes to save the day...
An all-dwarf fighter-heavy party, of course

They often mismanage gear, but then again they probably had too much of it anyways. They usually do pull off great plans, though, and I guess I was relying on one here too...

Sounds like a very good answer to the situation! Glad to hear the campaign is continuing, find it sad when it derails from a TPK.

Fighter heavy dwarf group sounds like a change of pace. Just steer clear of flying spellcasters with this lot.



I hate those lack of a plan moments. Nearly TPK'd the party I play in with one of those. Lack of plan/buffing + attack a higher level opponent = 1/2 the party dead.

What made it worse was the elaborate and nasty plan we'd come up with earlier in the session. To kill the big guy's mooks. Worked so well they didn't even get to act.

GM couldn't believe it. The big guy was only meant to serve as a distraction, warmup for something else.

 

[Campbell]

For the record, I was using Grim Tale's method to determine the difficulty. It is based on squaring the CR to get the power. My calculation went as follows:
Party Power is 3 x 5^2=75
Opposition Power is 4^2+4^2+6 x 2^2=56
56/75=0.7466. The equipment MAY increase that somewhat, but it seemed like a hard encounter but not one that should result in TPK. Especially since 2 goblins didn't follow the party.

I like the simplicity of the GT method. But perhaps I should reconsider using it...

I've been using the Grim Tales / Immortal's Handbook method for awhile, and I don't recall ever using the square of CR for determining EL. However, using the method outlined in v5 of Challenging Challenge Ratings which the Grim Tales method is based on, I get an EL differential of +1, which is roughly equal to a core rules EL differential of +5, barring equipment for the goblins, which should equate to a 25% survival chance. According to Challenging Challenge Ratings you should multiply Core Rules Monster CR by 1.5 before applying the Encounter Level equation, still when I worked it out I used the CRs that Upper Krust listed. For the goblins I applying the warrior class factors listed in the document. If I apply that rule to your above formula I get a result of 1.26, which fits with the results I had with Upper Krust's document.

 

[Yair]

I've been using the Grim Tales / Immortal's Handbook method for awhile, and I don't recall ever using the square of CR for determining EL. However, using the method outlined in v5 of Challenging Challenge Ratings which the Grim Tales method is based on, I get an EL differential of +1, which is roughly equal to a core rules EL differential of +5, barring equipment for the goblins, which should equate to a 25% survival chance. According to Challenging Challenge Ratings you should multiply Core Rules Monster CR by 1.5 before applying the Encounter Level equation. If I apply that rule to your above formula I get a result of 1.26, which fits with the results I had with Upper Krust's document.

I am using the Grim Tales' Gamemastering pdf. It is supposed to be an "revised and expanded" version of the GT rules, which are in turn based on UK's work. It was my understanding that they use WotC CR, not UK's CR.
I have v4 of UK's document. I'll try to apply it to the situation, as frankly I don't understand your calculation above.

Edit: Note that I never calculated EL. Rather, I calculated relative power. This can be converted to EL, as that's exactly what EL represents, but there simply is no need to do so - knowing the relative power is just what I need.
The PDF also offers means of determining EL. I don't bother to do so.

 

[diaglo]

Adventures - Was I asking too much?

i'll just chime in with the rest and say: yes.

at least 1 of the PCs was almost certainly guaranteed to die in this encounter.

and the unhurt barghest chasing the depleted the PCs after the battle would also mean someone was gonna be in trouble.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

I suspect the problem is that the Upper_Krust/GT method assumes the PC-5 and the enemy-4 _really are a 5 and a 4_. But the WoTC CRs are not assigned like that, in fact U_K reckons they're about 1/3 too low, ie a CR 4 barghest is actually about equal to a single _6th level_ PC. So your premise was flawed.

It was more like PC Power 75, NPC Power 36+36+24 = 86. And the PCs are weak classes in this configuration, only the Wizard-5 is a "real" CR 5, typical Rogue more like CR 4 & Bard in 3-man team CR 3 I'd say, for PC group power 25+16+9 = 50. Maybe higher, but definitely not 86.

I've been using the Grim Tales / Immortal's Handbook method for awhile, and I don't recall ever using the square of CR for determining EL. However, using the method outlined in v5 of Challenging Challenge Ratings which the Grim Tales method is based on, I get an EL differential of +1, which is roughly equal to a core rules EL differential of +5, barring equipment for the goblins, which should equate to a 25% survival chance. According to Challenging Challenge Ratings you should multiply Core Rules Monster CR by 1.5 before applying the Encounter Level equation, still when I worked it out I used the CRs that Upper Krust listed. For the goblins I applying the warrior class factors listed in the document. If I apply that rule to your above formula I get a result of 1.26, which fits with the results I had with Upper Krust's document.

The main problem here (as the above posters have mentioned) is that the Challenge Ratings in the Monster Manual are generally about 1/3rd lower than they should be.

One problem with Grim Tales is that they don't list the revised Challenge Ratings (although I seem to recall them asking if they could post the CRs on their website and I said yes - although I don't know if they have done that).

The Barghest according to my v.5 (which lists all the revised CRs) is at least CR 7 (and thats using the Silver Rule which GT doesn't use, otherwise the Barghest is CR 8).

So the system itself is not at fault, only the official Challenge Ratings.

Even the Barghest on its own is one heck of a tough encounter for your party.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Ack! Yes, yes you did... I would not want to run anything less than a full 4 member 6th level party against that encounter. With the part described even with good tactics it would have been dicey, with the best option being to run like bunnies!

The Auld Grump

 

[Gentlegamer]

An encounter is what it is. Perhaps the party should have sized it up more quickly and extricated itself.

 

[Janx]

aside from various bits of math saying the encounter was going to be hard/deadly, there's another thing to consider:

why are a rogue, bard, and wizard facing combat encounters? Given that these classes are not direct combat classes, they are at a disadvantage in a combat encounter. Unless they chose the direct approach, as a DM, your game should be less combat intensive for a weak-combat party. What's that mean? Lots of shadows, backstabbing, and social stuff.

Consider a different party mix (which they now have, to the extreme of 3 dwarf fighters). If 3 5th level fighters saw the same encounter, they'd mop up and have a blast. It's pretty obvious (especially in hindsight) that the original party isn't designed for that kind of kill power. Therefore, running kill-the-critters encounters isn't a good idea.

Granted, I have no clue how your party go to the situation of facing these bad guys, but as a general rule, if you got no warriors, then put less focus on combat. Expect them to try to pick oponnents off through stealth and smarts. Or fake it, with the party encountering lone or pairs of guards, something bite-sized for them.