Was I asking too much?

[jmucchiello]

I found this to be a big problem & temptation with running high-level D&D; some challenge-oriented players are literally contemptuous when their PCs win an easy victory - rather than being happy to win easily they appear to be bored and dismissive. This is particularly the case with players who focus on optimised character builds as the primary goal of the game. So the GM ups the ante next time... and the party gets slaughtered. I guess the solutions are either not to run a purely Gamist game, or to stick very close to the CR-EL guidelines no matter the temptation.

Or just enjoy smacking down contemptuous players.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I found this to be a big problem & temptation with running high-level D&D; some challenge-oriented players are literally contemptuous when their PCs win an easy victory - rather than being happy to win easily they appear to be bored and dismissive. This is particularly the case with players who focus on optimised character builds as the primary goal of the game. So the GM ups the ante next time... and the party gets slaughtered. I guess the solutions are either not to run a purely Gamist game, or to stick very close to the CR-EL guidelines no matter the temptation.

You are absolutely right about the dangers of the contempt/power-up dynamic. If the game is DM vs players, nobody wins. But it is an easy trap to fall into.

One of the best players in my group had an optimized cleric- but he conserved his resources carefully. Encounters always gave the impression of being challenging, he never gloated, but he always had a little extra in case things got bad.

As a DM I had fun, the player had fun, and the other players got to push their characters to the limit without getting TPKed every time there was a little miscalculation on someone's part.

 

[S'mon]

Or just enjoy smacking down contemptuous players.

Not me - when it all goes wrong the good players sacrifice their cool PCs to save the lives of the (rather two-dimensional) PCs of the annoying (but long-lived) contemptuous players, which just leaves me sad and downcast.

 

[S'mon]

One of the best players in my group had an optimized cleric- but he conserved his resources carefully. Encounters always gave the impression of being challenging, he never gloated, but he always had a little extra in case things got bad.

As a DM I had fun, the player had fun, and the other players got to push their characters to the limit without getting TPKed every time there was a little miscalculation on someone's part.

There is a PC rather like this in one of my current games, the player has a lot of experience playing under me and his PC is highly optimised; his PC is almost a Gandalf figure in this game (whereas in the last game he struggled to compete with the true powergamers). He's a good player and never gloats or does anything else that would tempt me to smack down his PC, he enjoys the power but doesn't abuse it, the other players respect his PC but don't feel overshadowed (I think) and it all works well. I get to run a more story/role-oriented game and enjoy it a lot more, the players get to have their PCs survive and succeed and also enjoy it more I reckon. Edit: (to balance the in previous post)

 

[the Lorax]

Whenever I have used a barghest against my players, they always wipe the floor with him and his goblin stooges. These have ususally been fighter heavy parties, however. Without someone to hold the line against the group your party faced, they would have a tough time against the barghest and goblins, any one or two of which would be able to greatly hurt your party in melee. With the party you described, I would think they should immediately run any time their clever plan doesn't work, as they have no one to suck up melee damage.

I've been using a barghest against one of the groups I run for about 4 levels now.
The first ran into the barghest as: Sor2, Sor1/Clr1, Mnk2, Sor1/Rog1, Ftr2

The first time they met him he was looking to get 3 people to feed off of, and got 3 NPCs, and I seriously made 2 players "damn-near-wet-their-pants" when he jumped out at them from hiding yelling "THREE!"

His DR has made him a difficult foe for the hack-weak party over time, which is fine. They have since left him behind, but know that they will have to go back through the area that the barghest is in. Then, killing him will be satisfying because they spent a lot of time running from him.

I'm actually looking forward to the upcomming rematch and death of the barghest.

Now as for the original question. HELL YEAH it was too much.
I dont really bother with ELs, because they are built on an iffy system built on top of a "best guess" system. Many of the CRs of monsters are built upon the idea that you encounter them on a flat plain, and knew in advance what they were going to fight, and began the fight with full resources (which for your caster level party is critical, especially with a Wiz 5, who has the limited number of "BOOMs")

It's OK. Just about everyone who has been running for any lenght of time has underestimated the enemies or overestimated the party to the detriment of the campaign.

Sounds like you got a nice heroic death out of it, hope the next one goes well.