Was there a defining moment for you?....

That moment was this June when my wife took the kids to see her folks for a week. This is something she does every year and gives me some much appreciated "bachelor time" which is usually spent on gaming stuff. This year, I spent the week trying to map out levels 11-25 or so of a significant campaign.

During that week, I started to realize just how much time it was going to take to prep all the adventures. The actual map of events was pretty easy: test the elven knight, talk to the dracolich, visit some ancient runes with a secret, get the macguffin, face the horde, save a couple kingdoms, fight some bosses, stop the BBEG from ascending to godhood. The critters were easy to describe, too: dracolich, archivist, gnoll binders, psions, extraplanar guardians, etc.

The overwhelming task was trying to stat each classed NPC, balance the ELs, include the right amount of treasure to keep the PCs within the guidelines, etc. In that week, I got one adventure generally serviceable. Insane, I tell you, insane. I looked through Dungeon mags and misc modules I had, but all those yielded were a few maps. I could adjust some things, but I still had most of the hard work to do.

If my players hadn't invested so bloody much in their characters, I'd drop the game like a rock. This much prep time just isn't worth it. I could probably have an easier time of it if I was running Fantasy Hero. I've found a few tricks -- NPCs all use the alternate rules in UA that say all in-class skills are at character level -- but it's really this balance focused on treasure distribution and narrowly focused monsters* that kill the game for me.

* This point is a big one for me. Wizards (mainly Mearls, AFAIK) keeps pimping the idea that a monster should do one thing and do it well. That sounds like a key design component of 4E and I think it's a load of crap. Having monsters that can be easily blindsided by some oddity of presentation that the GM didn't consider makes prep time even more tedious because you have to figure out just the right balance and make sure you haven't just invited the PCs to waltz right in. I don't mind the PCs showing off on occasion, but combats are more interesting when they aren't just a couple rounds of staring at each other and then a landslide. This is especially true of boss fights. I hope Wizards keeps the one-trick ponies to a minimum in 4E.
 

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Matthew L. Martin said:
When Mike Mearls let it be known that 'encouraging system mastery via including better and worse choices in character design with no guidance in how to discern them' was a dead philosophy in R&D. :)

See, this, when combined with the gripe in my previous post leave me unable to decide whether Mike Mearls is a genius or an idiot. (No offense to Mike, who has always struck me as a really nice guy and pretty smart.)

I'm really hoping for the former and that my misgivings are more misunderstandings. Right now, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.
 

Matthew L. Martin said:
When Mike Mearls let it be known that 'encouraging system mastery via including better and worse choices in character design with no guidance in how to discern them' was a dead philosophy in R&D. :)

As opposed to following some of the guidelines for balance in the first place and not having those 'worse' choices in the system in the first place?
 

Doea there have to be a moment?

I knew it was coming when Dungeon and Dragon was cancelled followed by licences being pulled. That was a major let down that has left me jilted vs 4e. I read 'Computer' in most of the threads about the game. My computer is slow and doesn't like images. 4e looks bad at this point for me. Hopefully not for everyone else.
 

For me, I started looking forward to 4e with cautious optimism after I read the Q&A seminar transcript from GenCon and some of the WOTC staff blogs and determined that WOTC seems focused on addressing the very problems I agree need attention in 3.5. I still don't know if I'll like the final product, and probably won't know for sure until I read the rules or see them analyzed by others here on this website. But I am hopeful that at least they are tackling the right problems with the right goals in mind. Now I just hope they give themselves enough time to think things through, test them thoroughly, then adjust and then test them again until they are satisfied. I hope they don't feel forced to put out untested or unfixed product because of the publishing deadline.
 

I crossed over during the announcement. I'd had most of the day to think about it, consider how much I'd spent on 3E, did I really need a new edition? But, I'm a D&D player. Love or hate the new edition, I felt I should be at the announcement.

The virtual table top and the character creator, seeing those on the big screen, those looked really cool. I was going have to check this out.

Any lingering doubts I had were washed away by the Secrets of D&D seminar on Friday.
 

Like a few others, I had a high level combat that took way too long . . . and even at mid levels times were beginning to drag notably. In my case, a 15 round combat that took two sessions to complete ( and that's all we did )had me contemplating whether I wanted to continue with 3.5. This mounted on the amount of prep time I was putting in at home just to set up for the next week's game, constant pauses to look up rules mid combat, pauses to look up skill checks, pauses to look up spells, and just major pauses in general. I was already well primed for a change a few months before the anouncement came out. And, if they can deliver on faster gameplay without sacrificing too many character options, I'll be happy. But, I'm just hopefully anticipating at this point.
 

I hate to be a downer, but I suspect many of the people who decide they are in love with 4e, unseen, will be some of the first to have their hearts broken. It's a fact... we can always imagine something better than what we have.
 

Mercule said:
That moment was this June when my wife took the kids to see her folks for a week. This is something she does every year and gives me some much appreciated "bachelor time" which is usually spent on gaming stuff. This year, I spent the week trying to map out levels 11-25 or so of a significant campaign.

During that week, I started to realize just how much time it was going to take to prep all the adventures. The actual map of events was pretty easy: test the elven knight, talk to the dracolich, visit some ancient runes with a secret, get the macguffin, face the horde, save a couple kingdoms, fight some bosses, stop the BBEG from ascending to godhood. The critters were easy to describe, too: dracolich, archivist, gnoll binders, psions, extraplanar guardians, etc.

The overwhelming task was trying to stat each classed NPC, balance the ELs, include the right amount of treasure to keep the PCs within the guidelines, etc. In that week, I got one adventure generally serviceable. Insane, I tell you, insane. I looked through Dungeon mags and misc modules I had, but all those yielded were a few maps. I could adjust some things, but I still had most of the hard work to do.

If my players hadn't invested so bloody much in their characters, I'd drop the game like a rock. This much prep time just isn't worth it. I could probably have an easier time of it if I was running Fantasy Hero. I've found a few tricks -- NPCs all use the alternate rules in UA that say all in-class skills are at character level -- but it's really this balance focused on treasure distribution and narrowly focused monsters* that kill the game for me.

* This point is a big one for me. Wizards (mainly Mearls, AFAIK) keeps pimping the idea that a monster should do one thing and do it well. That sounds like a key design component of 4E and I think it's a load of crap. Having monsters that can be easily blindsided by some oddity of presentation that the GM didn't consider makes prep time even more tedious because you have to figure out just the right balance and make sure you haven't just invited the PCs to waltz right in. I don't mind the PCs showing off on occasion, but combats are more interesting when they aren't just a couple rounds of staring at each other and then a landslide. This is especially true of boss fights. I hope Wizards keeps the one-trick ponies to a minimum in 4E.
This post deserves to be bumped. I'm running a player driven campaign and I feel your pain. Stat creation and treasure balancing suck time away from all the really cool things I could be doing. Like goals, history, secrets, devious plans, strategies, and just plain running the world.
 

Gundark said:
....When you thought "yeah I'm looking forward to 4e". Was it before the annoucement? After the announcement? What caused it?

For me it was running the Age of Worms Adventure path about 7 months ago. We were 18th level and the combats at that time took forever. Some of them (the combats) took around 2 plus hours to fight. Along with that was the looking up of spells, rules, etc.

I was done with 3.5. At the time I was thinking "hopefully 4e adresses these issues". It looks like they are. At least in theory. Time will tell if they work in practice.

Sounds to me more like you've had the defining moment of being done with 3E but I don't think it follows that you should necessarily be looking forward to 4E. Long combats bogging down the game leave me in the same position as you on 3E but I'm undecided on 4E.

The perceived potential of a new and unknown system can be enchanting but honestly I don't understand how anyone can be unreservedly looking forward to it. We may have been hearing opinions and theories from designers that we like but we have no solid idea of what it will be like at this point.
 

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