Was V's act evil? (Probable spoilers!)

[wingsandsword]

Okay, for the people who think this is okay just because the victims are (mostly) evil (or who think they are all inherently evil because they are Black Dragons or related to them). . .

What if there was an Epic Spell called "Evilcide" that necromantically snuffed out the life of every evil-aligned intelligent being on the planet. If you don't have an Evil alignment, it doesn't affect you, and if you are Evil-aligned it's Save Or Die at a pretty dang high DC.

Is it a good act to cast this spell because you are slaughtering millions upon millions of evil beings?

So. . .you cast Evilcide. . .and across the world millions of beings fall dead. You did good, right? An old miser that a kindly priest is talking to every day trying to get him to see the error of his ways and repent is struck down before he can be redeemed. The ruthless but reliable mercenaries that the sickly pilgrims are paying to escort them through wilderness infested with dangerous animals like bears and wolves drop dead. The cold-hearted but skilled navigator helping guide his ship home through treacherous waters just died suddenly leaving his shipmates to probably drift until they die, the extremely selfish but brilliant and skilled wizard that the Duke keeps in his court to help keep the ancient planar gate to the Abyss sealed dies in his sleep and nobody else knows how to maintain the seals. Yeah, good act indeed.

"It's okay to kill it just because it's evil" is a poor justification indeed. In the typical D&D game yes you are killing evil creatures without a trial and detailed examination of the facts, but the typical adventure also puts some context or reason into why they are being killed besides just their alignment entry in the MM. The orcs have been raiding settlements or declared war on the Kingdom, the kobolds ambushed you as you walked along the trail, the dark cult is kidnapping children to use as sacrifices, the black dragon swooped down and attacked you the moment you entered it's territory or breathed on you when you opened the door to it's lair without so much as a "get out!".

 

[prosfilaes]

This is a falsehood perpetuated on and on (in most all editions) and there is nothing supporting it in the RAW.

Looking through a random adventure, G1, I see nothing about any of the alignment of the giants or other creatures, and no implication that the characters should be concerned about killing the women and children, who are merely provided with hit points. Nor do I remember any concerns about who to attack in the Keep on the Borderlands.

 

[Deset Gled]

I find it hard to fathom that there is any definition(s) of Good and Evil where the act of bringing something back from death entirely for the purpose of torturing that life further, only so that you can take personal pleasure in experiencing that creature's pain, is not an Evil act.

The type of creature involved, the method of torture, and the circumstances for the initial killing are all just details. What V has done is an inherently evil act with nothing but evil intent.

 

[catsclaw227]

Looking through a random adventure, G1, I see nothing about any of the alignment of the giants or other creatures, and no implication that the characters should be concerned about killing the women and children, who are merely provided with hit points. Nor do I remember any concerns about who to attack in the Keep on the Borderlands.

Ok, so maybe our recollections of our own experiences clashes a bit. I recall DMing this series [wow, many moons ago.. ] as a very role-playing heavy game. I just opened my copy of G1 here.... And let's see... [I love these old adventures...]

Background: Giants have been raiding the lands of men in large bands, with giants of different sorts in these marauding groups. Death and destruction have been laid heavily upon every place these monsters have visited. This has caused great anger in high places, for life and property loss means failure of the vows of noble rulers to protect the life and goods of each and every subject - and possible lean times for the rulers as well as the ruled. Therefore, a party of the bravest and most powerful adventurers has been assembled and given the charge to punish the miscreant giants. These adventurers must deliver a sharp check, deal a lesson to the clan of hill giants nearby, or else return and put their heads upon the block for the headsman's axe!

Yet this charge is not as harsh as it may seem I for all have been fully equipped with all standard items needed for both wilderness an dungeon exploration; and each member of the party has likewise been given the finest horse available. Guides are available to help, and the leader has a splendid map showing exactly where the great timber fortress of the chief of the hill giants in the area is.

This chief, one Nosnra, is a grossly fat and thoroughly despicable creature, sly and vicious, loving ambush and backstabbing. Furthermore, the party has been cautioned to expect a secret force, some motivational power behind this unusual banding of different races of giants. More surprises might be in store ... Finally, the party has been instructed to keep any and all loot they chance upon, this to be their reward for the perils they are to face. They are to follow any clues discovered if such point towards the sinister hand suspected of guiding the rising, but to return at once if they should determine exactly the reason or force behind the unholy alliance. Some relic of great evil might be at hand.

This is high adventure! And there's lots of intrigue and motivation. This is an evil band of Hill Giants. Terrible and devastating, they've been marauding the local villages and baronies.

Now, the "take the loot" part, that's here. I can't knock you that! But you gotta love ya some treasure!

But, judging from some comments, this is an interesting intro to a hack'n'slash adventure that a lot of people must've missed out on.

I dunno, we had a lot of intrigue.... Our party had decided to "visit" them as emissaries to the Giants, asking for peace. It was only, after some bad diplomacy, did it become a combat. And the guys I DMed spared the children and the women that didn't try to smash them with oversized kitchen tools.

 

[catsclaw227]

All this nostalgia makes me want to try out Treebore's Castles and Crusades, or OSRIC games.


Nah.... I'm having too much fun with 4e right now. Maybe sometime later.

 

[Cadfan]

So. . .you cast Evilcide. . .and across the world millions of beings fall dead. You did good, right? An old miser that a kindly priest is talking to every day trying to get him to see the error of his ways and repent is struck down before he can be redeemed. The ruthless but reliable mercenaries that the sickly pilgrims are paying to escort them through wilderness infested with dangerous animals like bears and wolves drop dead. The cold-hearted but skilled navigator helping guide his ship home through treacherous waters just died suddenly leaving his shipmates to probably drift until they die, the extremely selfish but brilliant and skilled wizard that the Duke keeps in his court to help keep the ancient planar gate to the Abyss sealed dies in his sleep and nobody else knows how to maintain the seals. Yeah, good act indeed.

Yes, thank you for illustrating how little sense it makes to declare regular, selfish, every-day people to be Evil, gleefully placing them into the same category as actual demons.

Fun fact! If your necromancy-focused wizard makes it to 10th level by nothing but killing orphaned babies, you still detect to a paladin as only faintly evil! That's the same as the level 1 commoner who shortchanged the paladin three copper pieces at the convenience store. Of course, take two levels as a cleric of an evil deity, and you're up to moderately evil, even if all you do is tend the altar and light candles.

 

[catsclaw227]

Yes, thank you for illustrating how little sense it makes to declare regular, selfish, every-day people to be Evil, gleefully placing them into the same category as actual demons.

Fun fact! If your necromancy-focused wizard makes it to 10th level by nothing but killing orphaned babies, you still detect to a paladin as only faintly evil! That's the same as the level 1 commoner who shortchanged the paladin three copper pieces at the convenience store. Of course, take two levels as a cleric of an evil deity, and you're up to moderately evil, even if all you do is tend the altar and light candles.

Yes, but you and I both know that any DM worth a pinch of salt would know how to adjudicate this to make it fair. That's a forced, obviously nonsensical ruling that comes out of a mechanical error, a technicality, that 95% of DMs would just judge around and not make it a stupid situation that makes no sense.

 

[Cadfan]

Yes, but you and I both know that any DM worth a pinch of salt would know how to adjudicate this to make it fair. That's a forced, obviously nonsensical ruling that comes out of a mechanical error, a technicality, that 95% of DMs would just judge around and not make it a stupid situation that makes no sense.

I don't think its an error. Its straight from a chart in the Detect Evil description.

Lets drop the guy who killed all the orphaned babies. What if he was just a marauder and a rapist for 20 years? Unless he's got 10 hit dice, he's faintly evil. The game's definitions of what is or is not evil just don't make much sense. When you start from a premise "always evil does not mean that all creatures of this type are evil," its not surprising that things get weird fast. You just can't merge a universe in which everyone has to be judged on their own actions with a universe where a sentient being can be born with the trait: inherently evil.

 

[Nightson]

Okay, for the people who think this is okay just because the victims are (mostly) evil (or who think they are all inherently evil because they are Black Dragons or related to them). . .

What if there was an Epic Spell called "Evilcide" that necromantically snuffed out the life of every evil-aligned intelligent being on the planet. If you don't have an Evil alignment, it doesn't affect you, and if you are Evil-aligned it's Save Or Die at a pretty dang high DC.

Is it a good act to cast this spell because you are slaughtering millions upon millions of evil beings?

So. . .you cast Evilcide. . .and across the world millions of beings fall dead. You did good, right? An old miser that a kindly priest is talking to every day trying to get him to see the error of his ways and repent is struck down before he can be redeemed. The ruthless but reliable mercenaries that the sickly pilgrims are paying to escort them through wilderness infested with dangerous animals like bears and wolves drop dead. The cold-hearted but skilled navigator helping guide his ship home through treacherous waters just died suddenly leaving his shipmates to probably drift until they die, the extremely selfish but brilliant and skilled wizard that the Duke keeps in his court to help keep the ancient planar gate to the Abyss sealed dies in his sleep and nobody else knows how to maintain the seals. Yeah, good act indeed.

"It's okay to kill it just because it's evil" is a poor justification indeed. In the typical D&D game yes you are killing evil creatures without a trial and detailed examination of the facts, but the typical adventure also puts some context or reason into why they are being killed besides just their alignment entry in the MM. The orcs have been raiding settlements or declared war on the Kingdom, the kobolds ambushed you as you walked along the trail, the dark cult is kidnapping children to use as sacrifices, the black dragon swooped down and attacked you the moment you entered it's territory or breathed on you when you opened the door to it's lair without so much as a "get out!".

And the next day no one is raped, no one is murdered, no towns are burned to the ground. Do you really think the good done by evil creatures outweighs the evil done by evil creatures?

 

[Intense_Interest]

The problem with killing massive groups of people, even ones that are "(Almost) Always Evil" is that they are not Always Evil to a Fault. Evil characters, even Black Dragons, impact and shape the world around them, commonly in ways that provide stability or limitations on other random or evil acts.

V's act was absolutely Chaotic, in that it destroyed so many creatures that it could not but absolutely destabilize lawful societies: even the town under the thumb of the Evil Black Dragon du jour is going to have arguments and conflicts with spliting the loot.

Any act that kills as many creatures as V's act did is always Chaotic, and the fact that the spell had no limits with regard to the possible good these creatures could do means that it is also an act that is always Evil.