Was V's act evil? (Probable spoilers!)

[wingsandsword]

And the next day no one is raped, no one is murdered, no towns are burned to the ground. Do you really think the good done by evil creatures outweighs the evil done by evil creatures?

Why would there be nobody raped, nobody murdered, no arson? Neutral people sometimes commit evil acts. Also, people change alignments, it's part of the whole "free will" thing, and you think that maybe 1/3 of sentient lifeforms dropping dead suddenly won't drive some neutral or even good people to evil? Like someone who saw his parents die and wasn't on a dark path. . .until he had to turn to a life of theft to survive when the breadwinner for his family died, or someone who swore vengeance against the person who killed his parents/wife/children/best friend.

What about the chaos and mayhem caused through society at so many deaths, like dynasties falling, armies being decimated, important guilds being massacred, do you think this on it's own wouldn't do huge damage and cause much suffering? It's not just waving a magic wand, everybody with an Evil alignment drops dead and now the world is a happy sunshine and fairy dust place because there is no Evil anymore.

Being Evil is not a capitol crime in and of itself. In fact, I'd say that in terms of committing actual crimes, you'll probably find more committed by Chaotic Neutral people who just plain disregard the law and commit occasional evil deeds (and occasional good ones) but not enough to have an Evil alignment, than by Lawful Evil people that are dark-hearted but stick to the laws of society (mostly).

Even then, you're saying it's actually not evil to slaughter millions of people instantly just because their alignment detects as Evil, without regard for any acts they have actually taken that are evil? As was pointed out, a merchant who regularly shortchanges by a few copper his patrons might could have an Evil alignment (especially if he also regularly commits other very petty Evil like maybe spreading false rumors about his competitors), that could get you a LE or NE alignment if you do it often enough. Alignment is a rough gauge of law/chaos and good/evil in someones intents and deeds, and not a very just way of deciding who lives and who dies.

 

[Byronic]

Also, not to nitpick, but I saw the raising of the dragon as a needed part to be able to center the spell - it goes out from the undead head. It may not have worked with a corpse as initial target.

That's something that I noticed as well. It didn't have to be out of a desire to torture (although under influence of the other three souls it might be)

 

[Piratecat]

Guys, I note some high emotions earlier in the thread. Please - if you start feeling the need to address a person instead of a point, walk away from the thread for a bit.

Keep religious references out of it as well, please.

Thanks.

 

[hagor]

You know, I think I found one of the issues with this thread.

I'm going to throw this out there.

You can do something evil and, through it, achieve something good. But what you did is still evil.

V's actions might - might - result in something good. Or they might not. But the end result does not matter; both the action itself and the reasons FOR the action are evil. Both of them. The "It's totally not evil" people have yet to talk about HER DOING IT SPECIFICALLY TO TORTURE SOMEONE SHE JUST RAISED FORM THE DEAD. That's a bit of an important thing to note.

QFT!

Also, not to nitpick, but I saw the raising of the dragon as a needed part to be able to center the spell - it goes out from the undead head. It may not have worked with a corpse as initial target.

To be honest, I had not considered this possibility. Still does not make it anything else than Evil in my book, though.
Also, looking back to the strip: before raising the dragon's head V agrees with the voices, which to me strongly indicates that torturing the dragon plays a big role in V's next actions. It is much more than just "providing the material component of the spell".

Hagor

 

[Cadfan]

Also, not to nitpick, but I saw the raising of the dragon as a needed part to be able to center the spell - it goes out from the undead head. It may not have worked with a corpse as initial target.

I made the same assumption.

 

[Cadfan]

There is always a danger that you're dealing with an armchair moralist who actually takes the issue seriously. But many people who claim to hold repugnant views actually would never put them into practise if they had to be ones to do it. Some do. But I'm hoping no-one like that is here.

Are you sure? The modern face of warfare is the strategic bombing of countries several levels of technology below yours where the civilians haven't freely consented to their own government. Civilian casualties, both from the bombing and from the resulting destruction of infrastructure, are inevitable and are typically rather high.

From a results-based moral code that only analyzes who does or does not die (instead of looking at long term consequences like the benefits of a world without black dragons), its not all that different from what V did. In fact, it may be worse. V offed a bunch of giant, evil, marauding lizards that spit acid. He may have roped in the trace amounts of creatures from the "always evil" alignment who aren't always evil. Lets say, what, 2%? If you presume that being "always evil" is at least as bad a moral offense as joining an army that's opposed to mine, those were justifiable kills, with a 2% or so error rate. I'm not sure that any war ever in the history of the human race has ever had a ratio of civilian deaths that humane.

From a motivational perspective on morality... well, under that, V's screwed. The only thing I can say is that this decision stemmed logically from what V would do if he were totally amoral. Problem: dragons may come for revenge again, and I can't do this every time. Most Efficient Solution: kill all dragons now, while I can. So OotS gets credit for great characterization.

 

[Nymrohd]

If we actually take the entire event into account there is further evidence of V being driven by revenge far more than a desire to protect her/his spouse and children. At any point in the fight, the dragon could have chosen to simply breath acid all over them, yet V only acted so as to kill the dragon and even with the benefit of the timestop, did not raise a single protective ward over her/his family, while showering her/himself with protective magic. Even after neutralising the immediate threat, she/he moved on to torture the dragon (and casting Familicide which is the act in question in this thread) instead of picking his/her family and teleporting them to the nearest healer. Her/his children have broken most of their limbs, her/his spouse was impaled on a tree, yet it is more important to torture the dragon than relieve them from pain as soon as possible.

So yeah, whether her/his genocidal act against black dragons is evil or not, V certainly cares more about proving his/her arcane strength (which she/he did not even gain her/himself but rather bargained for moronically with three fiends) and gloating than about her/his family's welfare.

PS. What gender is that damned elf already!?

 

[Nymrohd]

Running back into the sphere of darkness isn't attempting to flee?



The suggestion spell had just ended that second, and the dragon was about to, you know, kill them.

Feel free to read those strips again V had commanded the dragon to watch over the party, and eat any of them if they tried to leave until Durkon could rest and remove curse from her, and then he/she took the time to memorize spells for the day, at which point the suggestion ended and the disintergration began. They had several hours in which they could have escaped.

Also the young black dragon had his father killed by adventurers. If anyone thinks Familicide is a non-evil preemptive strike, then killing adventurers who intrude in a dragon's lair also qualifies as such.

 

[catsclaw227]

...yet V only acted so as to kill the dragon and even with the benefit of the timestop, did not raise a single protective ward over her/his family, while showering her/himself with protective magic. Even after neutralising the immediate threat, she/he moved on to torture the dragon (and casting Familicide which is the act in question in this thread) instead of picking his/her family and teleporting them to the nearest healer. Her/his children have broken most of their limbs, her/his spouse was impaled on a tree, yet it is more important to torture the dragon than relieve them from pain as soon as possible.

This. This puts the act over the fence from "protect my family at all costs (by casting Familicide)" into the "you have been killed and now I will bring you back from death and have you watch over my shoulder as I waste your entire lineage. (My Family? Oh, they're here?)"

 

[Shemeska]

Irredeemably, like a black dragon? Like always evil?

Or is there a new definition of irredeemably to go along with the new definition of always?

Note the lack of an [Evil] tag on black dragons, even if they're always evil (which doesn't actually mean always).

Not all black dragons are evil, and ultimately they still have the possibility of being different. They're mortal, and have some (albeit rare) chance of being something other than their racial norm. They're not fiends. They aren't physically made of EVIL. They don't exist as manifestations of abstract malevolence.

An act of genocide strips each and every member of that black dragon race of the possibility of redemption. Even if 99% of them are evil, it's an overwhelmingly, grossly, and yes irredeemably evil action.