Water, water everywhere, Nor any drop to drink

Yeah, the original point of this thread was that if you have bits and pieces of something lying around, you don't need the whole.
Incorrect.

The point was that warlords, as designed to fit within 5e's system expectations, already exist in more than one way. A multitude of ways, actually.

The point was that some people's inability to take off their 4e glasses, and see 5e on its own merits, and their need to hold on to their edition warring baggage, prevents them from seeing it.
 

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First of all, it's not true that the best contribution a wizard could make is AoE damage. It's classic, but wizards have many very effective spells that do other things and do them very well indeed. The Fighter does not have any such alternative actions to blow his Action Surge on. He has a relatively powerful attack action, and the rest of his potential actions just everymans'.
Of course it's not true. That was the point of the obvious hyperbolic argument.

And if a fighter doesn't have that great attack, then using his Action Surge for other actions is an alternative.

That's odd. Why would you expect them to stack? 4e's treadmill progression was pretty tight, doubling enhancement bonuses would have been game-breaking. That the two didn't stack was precisely why they could be used together: in a low-magic game that had some magic items, but wanted to keep them rare & special, you'd flip on inherent bonuses so attack & damage with weapon & implement powers and defenses would stay on the treadmill as designed, but you wouldn't have to cycle new weapons, armor, and neck-slot items every 5 levels or so. One character could have acquired a flamey magic sword at 8th level, named it and keep it his whole career, for instance, whether others gained items or not.
Doubling would be game breaking. Stacking a +1 magic weapon with a +3 inherent bonus in mid-paragon would not.
You received magic items earlier in the game than when you got inherent bonuses. And often you'd be getting items of the next plus prior to getting the next inherent upgrade. So allowing low-plus magic items to stack would not break the game. And you wouldn't have the magic item treadmill of 3e/4e where you dump favourite magic items (such as a flaming sword) on a regular basis.

As you imply, there's the kindasorta solution of just increasing the bonuses of the magic item to always be above the inherent bonuses. But that was a wonky and rather awkward, requiring constant bookkeeping. My players were new and casual, and the whole thing just caused headaches for me for several months.

UA is prettymuch betatesting (if not outright spitballing), anyway, so doesn't have that 'official quality' expectation. And the bar for balance in the 5e paradigm is much more flexible, there's so much left to the DM's judgement that class balance is largely determined by him, anyway, so that ball is left in his court, part of the Empowerment that makes the game such a blast to run.
UA is betatesting concepts for sure, but so much of it is broken at even a casual glance. A 3PP author even eyeballing their balance without trying can sometimes be more balanced.
And since the bar for balance is so low, it should be easy for an unofficial product to be "close enough" to balanced. Those products should be viable alternatives.

The question isn't so much how useful are his attacks - with those Maneuvers, they're clearly useful whether they do huge damage or not.
Even with Action Surge a fighter can only use one maneuver each turn. An extra action doesn't help for that. And if the fighter uses AS to get an extra maneuver, they're not necessarily dealing extra damage.

The question is how useful are alternate actions? What does that build have going for him that make his use of help or something better than the next guy's.
Why does it matter if the fighter doesn't have a class feature that makes Help better? Advantage to an ally is advantage. It's still potentially a higher DPR boost to the party than the fighter wiffing a couple times.

(Plus, all it takes is a single maneuver that boosts the Help action. Super simple to make.)

Unlikely, but possible. One can always willfully build a sub-optimal character. You can build a wizard to be the best melee tank he can be, for instance. (Actually, you can do that surprisingly well, maybe not the best example - but, still, clearly sub-optimal.)

It's not sub-optimal. It's just sub-optimal at damage.
That's the issue. It's optimal at other things and would be quite good at them. And with the ability to self-heal as a bonus action after each short rest, the fighter well suited to tank.

Unless you're advocating that taking actions other inflicting damage is suboptimal. I don't entirely agree with that, but there is an element of truth: damage wins battles.
If true that would means that a class designed to do other things - such as, oh, heal or provide support - are inherently suboptimal.
 

Doubling would be game breaking. Stacking a +1 magic weapon with a +3 inherent bonus in mid-paragon would not.
Adding a +1 over the expected bonus had about the same impact whether you were at 1st level or 21st. It was one of the more depressing things about 4e, thus 'treadmill.' With the treadmill, even a few stray +1s could skew things, and there were always one or two out there however much errata kept batting them down. Adding one, maybe with some kind of simple house rule like "If you have both an inherent and an enhancement bonus, increase the higher by one," could be iffy.

You received magic items earlier in the game than when you got inherent bonuses.
With standard wealth/level assumptions. Presumably not so much in a low-magic game.
And you wouldn't have the magic item treadmill of 3e/4e where you dump favourite magic items (such as a flaming sword) on a regular basis.
If you'd used inherent bonuses, you wouldn't have that phenomenon, yes. When your inherent bonus exceeded the enhancement bonus of your flaming sword, it'd still be able to inflict plenty of fire damage, for instance. You could 'drop' magic items quite infrequently, and whether they were a slightly higher bonus than the party's current inherent bonuses or not, they'd be significant.

As you imply, there's the kindasorta solution of just increasing the bonuses of the magic item to always be above the inherent bonuses.
Not what I implied at all. The only 'solution' you'd need would be to avoid placing any of the exactly 3 magic items that give nothing but an enhancement bonus, as they'd eventually become superfluous. All other items would have remained useful for their properties and powers.

Now, you would have to throw out make/buy of magic items, but that seems like it'd be standard practice for a low-magic game, anyway.

But that was a wonky and rather awkward, requiring constant bookkeeping.
No bookkeeping required, you use the higher bonus, like any other stacking rule.

Of course it's not true. That was the point of the obvious hyperbolic argument.

And if a fighter doesn't have that great attack, then using his Action Surge for other actions is an alternative.
A wizard, whether he has a nice attack spell or not, has many other useful, some even unique, spells he can cast with that same slot. A fighter's class features greatly enhance his attacks - whether the player willfully builds against those features to make his attacks poorer in spite of them or builds his character sensibly, the features are still there, making his attacks better than they would be if he weren't a fighter - but have little or no effect on other actions he might take. A fighter's help action is prettymuch like anyone else's help action. His attack action is improved by features like combat style, good weapon proficiencies, extra attack, extra ASIs, improved crit or CS dice. Using Action Surge on the former is probably a waste - it should be pretty rare that it's terribly effective to use help on two different allies - while the potential of doubling-down on the only action his class features make him significantly better in some subsequent round is worth reserving the Action Surge for.

Even with Action Surge a fighter can only use one maneuver each turn. An extra action doesn't help for that. And if the fighter uses AS to get an extra maneuver, they're not necessarily dealing extra damage.
The majority of maneuver do more damage via the CS die. The stand-out exception, Commander's Strike, grants an ally an attack - presumably in the hopes it'll do yet more damage.

Why does it matter if the fighter doesn't have a class feature that makes Help better?
Because he has features that make his attacks /much/ better. Use help when there's no point to doing anything else, and no need to use Action Surge to slip in that help action. Let someone else who has no effective actions to perform use Help. It's a third-string action. Reserve Action Surge to double down on actions you're actually better at, that combine to achieve something. For the Fighter, that's attacking, because there's nothing else he's that good at, and because another set of attacks on the same target is stacking by definition.

Advantage to an ally is advantage. It's still potentially a higher DPR boost to the party than the fighter wiffing a couple times.
You're assuming a fighter whose worst at fighting in his party, when the point of the class is 'best at fighting.'

(Plus, all it takes is a single maneuver that boosts the Help action. Super simple to make.)
Maneuvers are used as attacks, so once you hit 5th, you'd never need to waste an Action Surge to Help, you'd just make a set of attacks and use the Hypothetical Helpier Maneuver - much more efficient.

It's not sub-optimal. It's just sub-optimal at damage.
Which is the only thing the fighter's abilities make him significantly better at. Optimizing something you're bad at isn't optimizing. Intentionally sabotaging something you're good at when you gain nothing from the sacrifice, well, I don't think we have any pithy jargon for what a bad idea that is.

Unless you're advocating that taking actions other inflicting damage is suboptimal.
Not at all. It's just so for the fighter & Action Surge, and only because it lacks class features that do anything else that takes an action all that well. The idea that damage is the only thing that matters is born of short-sighted white-room 'optimization' that is, well, sub-optimal in itself. ;P Let's not go there, it is a silly place.

And since the bar for balance is so low, it should be easy for an unofficial product to be "close enough" to balanced. Those products should be viable alternatives.
There's more to quality than balance, but, yes, the onus is on the DM to make material work, official or otherwise. None-the-less, DMing is tough enough that I can understand some being leery of taking on any more such burden than strictly necessary.
 
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Yep. Magically.

<snip>

Correct. Magically inspiring.
What does magically inspiring actually mean, here? How is a 1st level bard's music able to inspire a 20th level wizard who has heard choirs of angels singing the song of creation? What is the process? Is it a type of mind-control? It certainly can't be the beauty or depth or magical potency of the music which is, presumably, inferior in all those respects to the music of the heavenly choirs.

The same things applies to [MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION]'s comment on the high-level paladin receiving divine guidance from a low-level cleric. As soon as we look beyond the mechanics to the fiction, what are we supposed to imagine is actually taking place? How does a 1st level cleric actually improve the connection to the will and power of the gods that a 20th level paladin enjoys?
 

What does magically inspiring actually mean, here? How is a 1st level bard's music able to inspire a 20th level wizard who has heard choirs of angels singing the song of creation? What is the process? Is it a type of mind-control?
Possibly. The Wizard, even with a +6 prof bonus, might still fail his WIS save now and then.

How does a 1st level cleric actually improve the connection to the will and power of the gods that a 20th level paladin enjoys?
Put that way it seems difficult. But, maybe though he has a lesser refinement of Faith, he has an innocence that the higher-level divine character has long since lost?

It's not that different from the 1st level Warlord / 20th level fighter question, just a little less obvious in the above case. The fighter could be inspired by the pluck and enthusiasm of the much less capable fellow warrior. Hero & sidekick stuff.


Of course, mechanics could always be adjusted. Anything that scales with level, for instance, could use the lower of the two character levels involved, for instance. Doesn't work so well for spells since they scale with /slot/ level...
 

Which is the only thing the fighter's abilities make him significantly better at. Optimizing something you're bad at isn't optimizing. Intentionally sabotaging something you're good at when you gain nothing from the sacrifice, well, I don't think we have any pithy jargon for what a bad idea that is.
How exactly does Second Wind and Indomitable make you better at damage?
How do the Protection Fighting Style, defensive maneuvers, and any feat aside from Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Fighter increase your damage?
 

What does magically inspiring actually mean, here? How is a 1st level bard's music able to inspire a 20th level wizard who has heard choirs of angels singing the song of creation?
Maybe it works because he recognizes the echoes of that song.

(whispers) Or maybe he doesn't have to feel impressed by it at all...just saying. ;)
 

Maybe it works because he recognizes the echoes of that song.

(whispers) Or maybe he doesn't have to feel impressed by it at all...just saying. ;)

How exactly are you "inspired" if you're not impressed?

Oh, right, it's the same as being Blessed by a god not having anything to do with the god in question doing the blessing. I suppose when my halfling Battlemaster with a knife stabs you for 2 points of damage and you are now Frightened from my Menacing Strike means that your character isn't actually afraid. He just suffers disadvantage to all attacks and checks and cannot approach me because... reasons?

Yup, totally no inconsistencies here. Everything makes perfect sense.
 

Maybe it works because he recognizes the echoes of that song.
Well, this takes us back to questions like, why can't anyone evoke those memories by singing? Or even, why can't anyone seek the blessings of the gods via prayer?

At a certain point, in a class/level game, we have to accept that there is a degree of mechanical silo-isation which doesn't necessarily express some deep truth about the fiction, but is a convenient device for building PCs.

So just as the bard characters are the ones who happen to evoke memories of the song of creation, and just as the cleric characters are the ones whose prayers the gods happen to listen to, so warlords are the ones whose inspiring words happen to evoke some sort of response from their audience, or who happen to be able to tug on the audience's motivational strings.
 

How exactly are you "inspired" if you're not impressed?
Covered up-thread.

Oh, right, it's the same as being Blessed by a god not having anything to do with the god in question doing the blessing.
No, the god is definitely involved. It's the same as you not having to like the god (or the cleric) in order to experience enhancements to your fighting ability. Spells don't dictate how you have to feel toward the caster of the spell, with a few rare exceptions (charm, fear) whose entire purpose is to change those feelings. Because they are, yes, maaaaaagic.

I don't understand why you don't seem to accept that some things are possible with magic that are not possible without magic. Note, this is not the same as saying that magic is more effective than mundane abilities; I don't actually think it is. I would, however, say that it is more versatile.

How do you think Bless works, or should work in a perfect game?

I suppose when my halfling Battlemaster with a knife stabs you for 2 points of damage and you are now Frightened from my Menacing Strike means that your character isn't actually afraid.
If I'm playing a PC and your halfling Battlemaster stabs me with a knife, we have bigger problems than how to translate the mechanics of the game into fluff. But just for the record, that situation has exactly the same issue as Warlord inspiration. Your Battlemaster claims I have to be afraid for no reason except he's just that awesome; your Warlord claims I have to be inspired for no reason except she's just that awesome.

Well, this takes us back to questions like, why can't anyone evoke those memories by singing?
Because not everyone's song contains (magical!) echoes of the music of creation. "True bards" are rare, remember. An ordinary song would just be a nice melody, without the echoes of power behind it.

Or even, why can't anyone seek the blessings of the gods via prayer?
Well again, the in-world explanation is that "true clerics" are rare.

But in a party that didn't have a cleric or paladin, I could see allowing it to happen if it fit the story. It could be a great twist. But whether that would be fun or game-breaking would vary a great deal from table to table and game to game, so it's probably best not to try to write a rule for it. It would be up to the DM to judge the individual situation.

At a certain point, in a class/level game, we have to accept that there is a degree of mechanical silo-isation which doesn't necessarily express some deep truth about the fiction, but is a convenient device for building PCs.
Some people are willing to go further with that than others.

warlords are the ones whose inspiring words happen to evoke some sort of response from their audience, or who happen to be able to tug on the audience's motivational strings.
The problem is, that concept comes with the literary (and to some extent, real-world) baggage of the expectation that the one who inspires and motivates is looked up to, respected, and more often than not, named as the leader of whatever group they happen to be in.

You can just ignore that in play, as you said above--in fact, that's pretty much how my group handled it when we played--but I can understand that some tables don't want to abstract their concepts like that. And then there will always be the odd immature players who genuinely do want the other PCs to look up to the Warlord and will attempt to use the rules fluff to compel that in roleplay.

At minimum, it's probably a conversation that should be had during character creation.
 
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