D&D 5E Waterdeep: Dragon Heist Post-Mortem (Spoilers)

[Benjamin Olson]

I knew my players would only slightly care about Trollskull and care not at all about the factions (which the adventure for whatever reason seems convinced that players will be deeply invested in).

Thinking anyone cares about the Forgotten Realms factions is a general 5e design problem.

 

[LordEntrails]

It’s worth knowing that Roll20 has a transmogrify function where you can move maps, handouts and characters between campaigns. You can then move the Lairs and any other stuff you need across just by clicking box. There was a readme I think when I bought the module. I think the reason they did it this was was there wasn’t 40 similar maps clogging up the directory.

Doesn't that transmogrify require the top level subscription? And why would you need similar maps? Just use the same map for lots of different encounters. Or is that one more shortcoming of Roll20 in that it can't re-use maps for different encounters?

 

[Retreater]

Doesn't that transmogrify require the top level subscription? And why would you need similar maps? Just use the same map for lots of different encounters. Or is that one more shortcoming of Roll20 in that it can't re-use maps for different encounters?

I did have the top level subscription at that time. Unfortunately, I guess I just didn't know all the bells and whistles.
Roll20 can re-use maps. You can copy maps so you can even pre-load the tokens for different situations (like "this is what happens during the day at this place, but if you go there at night..."). The issue I had (again, not knowing about the transmogrify feature), was that the information was incomplete. It wouldn't list the NPCs, monsters, narrative text, or maps that were specific to each season.
To make it harder to run, I didn't purchase the hard copy of the adventure - just running it off of Roll20. (I tried to keep this issue from happening again when I got the hard copy for Rime of the Frostmaiden.)

 

[TheSword]

Well that's definitely where our experiences diverged. My group was all over running an awesome tavern and having a cool base. It really was the core of the whole experience. Our most memorable sidequests had to do with advancing and protecting our business and our beef with the villains had to do with them threatening it.

Meanwhile I remember that there were these "faction side quests" the module tried to foist on us that we only ever took a passing interest in. I'd love to hear from the group out there that spent their whole time enraptured in those.

The faction quests were a mixed bag but I enjoyed three.

One player was a rogue who wanted to join/lead a thieves guild. I had Davil Starsong be a defector to the Shadowtheives wanting to set up a new branch in the city. So they enjoyed those quests.

We also had my pit fighter climb to the top of mount waterdeep to learn from the monk up there which was interesting with the zhentarim guarding the route.

Lastly I pinched the scene from Pathfinder’s Second Darkness that featured a heist on the Golden Goblin gambling house. The PCs stopped the heist and that was where they first met the Cassalanters. I really liked the idea of seeding the main villains early where possible.

I used the WOC approved supplement from DM guild and was really glad I did.

 

[TheSword]

Doesn't that transmogrify require the top level subscription? And why would you need similar maps? Just use the same map for lots of different encounters. Or is that one more shortcoming of Roll20 in that it can't re-use maps for different encounters?

It might do. I never thought of that.

It’s worth noting you have to select every single handout and character individually so it does take time to mix the seasons. It can be done that way though.

The maps have the tokens and all the boundries pre loaded so you may want the right map for the right season.

 

[TheSword]

I mentioned descending into Undermountain level 1 as an interlude early. My players wanted extra cash to upgrade the tavern so this was a obvious choice. I know the kind of players I have don’t need telling twice if there is a massive treasure filled dungeon beneath their feet.

The depths are a challenge but not an unreasonable one for an experienced group of 3rd level players. It also has the advantage that it means you can cut some of the stuff that’s not so good like the chase.

 

[Hussar]

I ran it with the same players, but not the same characters. The characters for Dragon Heist were built for a different function (intrigue, social situations) than those for DotMM (dungeon crawl), so it didn't seem logical to connect them. Also, IIRC, I ran DotMM before running Dragon Heist.
Without getting into full Post-Mortem mode on DotMM here, I'd just say that I can't imagine any logical way to connect the two adventures other than the circumstantial location of Waterdeep. But that would be like connecting Rime of the Frostmaiden and Storm King's Thunder just because they're in the North. Even worse, actually, because the two Waterdeep campaigns appeal to widely different playstyles.

Oh yeah. I now remember those being a thing. Couldn't get a single player to even give a second's glance to a solitary faction quest.

Well, for us, we connected with all that Dwarven Ale we found in DotMM, for one. The goblin town with the very smart goblin became a pretty solid contact between our tavern and the underdark, with us hiring the goblins to bring the ale to our tavern, which in turn connected us to becoming a major supplier for dwarven spirits for a while (until they ran out at least). We continuously tried to tell everyone we met to come to our tavern for free drinks.

There's also lots of little side stuff too. The intellect devourers for one.

Granted, the DotMM adventure fizzled unfortunately, due to the group breaking up. I wasn't DMing DotMM, but, I did DM Dragonheist. Not really seeing the wildly different playstyles thing. DotMM is a lot of talking if you don't approach it as a series of combats.

But, yeah, the faction quests bombed for me too. But, again, that was because the group did not care in the slightest about the setting or the NPC's. I would like to run the adventure again, because I do think it has legs, but, unlike the standard dungeon crawls that you typically see in adventures like Storm Kings Thunder or Saltmarsh, it's one that really, really needs player buy in to work.

On a side note about the maps. I understand why WotC uses the Dyson Logos maps. It makes so much sense for a tabletop DM who isn't going to show these beautiful maps to the players, but, rather is most likely just going to sketch out the outlines on a dry erase mat. Heck, even copying and printing the maps would be pretty easy and not too hard on ink once you blew them up to scale. But, as a VTT player, I really don't like them. WotC has used Dyson Logos for a number of adventures now and I hate every single one of them and have to replace every one. It's a huge pain in the ass.

 

[Blue]

I don't know that I have ever seen an adventure advertised as "run out the box".

You've never looked at a module? Because every single one is supposed to be able to be everything you need to run. It's their primary selling point - it's an adventure, as opposed to having to prep and make your own.

 

[TerraDave]

I did get some advice about problem areas and ideas about how to smooth over situations. My primary issue with remixing or blending together all four seasons was how it was organized on Roll20. You had to choose the season and run that season as a separate module. Running winter and summer, for example, would require two different games. Had I been doing it in person without the constraints of technology, I think I would've felt more free to homebrew it and take other suggestions.

Um, so, you can load multiple modules into a single game on Roll20.

I am doing Saltmarsh right now, and have loaded the base module--with three minimodules--and then 3 of the other ones in the book.

Also, you can load a module from another source. Doesn't have to be the same source.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You've never looked at a module? Because every single one is supposed to be able to be everything you need to run. It's their primary selling point - it's an adventure, as opposed to having to prep and make your own.

Where? I've certainly never read one with that text written anywhere.

Take the running a tavern issue. Some groups love that kind of thing, and some hate it. There is no possible way to make one size fits all. That's why we have a human DM and not a computer running the game.