D&D 5E Waterdeep: Dragon Heist Post-Mortem (Spoilers)

[TheSword]

So only praise is interesting ? My point is that, the more you dig into it, the more fault I find in this module, whatever angle you look at. Not that parts of it are not reusable, but honestly, there have been way more interesting elements posted about Waterdeep in the past...



Well, it seems that the OP also did not like the module at all, so what exactly are YOU doing here ?



And this is not about DotMM, since you seem to be a stickler for rules. It's about WDH.

@Lyxen Dragonheist was designed as a backdrop and introduction before Undermountain. If it’s polite, relevant and constructive (if that’s a more appropriate word then positive) I’ll ask any question I like.

@Retreater has been pretty consistently philosophical about these post mortem threads. I don’t agree with everything said but I find the work around and ideas really interesting and I think they have a ton of value… If the criticism is constructive. I’m not going to speak for anyone else.

 

[TheSword]

Yeah.

In my experience, the only setting that the players care about is the one that they help create themselves. Their backstories, their choices, their explanation for how their party knows each other, who they choose to interact with, where they choose to go.

Giving them someone elses detailed setting is a "whatever". Giving them a gift with a dangerous vulnerability, is a, "you must be joking".

When creating an urban setting, it is so important to get a sense of the desires of the players.

I think this is a good point. There is a lot of mileage of having an alternative home base… a guild house, temple, shop, fighting pit. Instead of just the tavern as an option.

My group included a priest of Tymora so they actually opened Trollskull as a casino which was quite good fun. The Cassalanters attended the opening night party.

Another interesting idea we used was to include Matt Coleville’s Stronghold rules. So the casino/tavern provided a tangible benefit.

 

[Yaarel]

so they actually opened Trollskull as a casino

When you see the players investing personally in the setting like this, that is the awesome ideal.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

However, it started to fall apart when the party got possession of the haunted tavern to set up as a base of operations. Wanting to keep a low profile, the party decided to not get involved in this business venture.

Well that's definitely where our experiences diverged. My group was all over running an awesome tavern and having a cool base. It really was the core of the whole experience. Our most memorable sidequests had to do with advancing and protecting our business and our beef with the villains had to do with them threatening it.

Meanwhile I remember that there were these "faction side quests" the module tried to foist on us that we only ever took a passing interest in. I'd love to hear from the group out there that spent their whole time enraptured in those.

 

[Retreater]

Back to the topic. @Retreater did you run Dungeon of the Mad Mage with the same group and characters and if so, how did you find the transition?

I ran it with the same players, but not the same characters. The characters for Dragon Heist were built for a different function (intrigue, social situations) than those for DotMM (dungeon crawl), so it didn't seem logical to connect them. Also, IIRC, I ran DotMM before running Dragon Heist.
Without getting into full Post-Mortem mode on DotMM here, I'd just say that I can't imagine any logical way to connect the two adventures other than the circumstantial location of Waterdeep. But that would be like connecting Rime of the Frostmaiden and Storm King's Thunder just because they're in the North. Even worse, actually, because the two Waterdeep campaigns appeal to widely different playstyles.

Meanwhile I remember that there were these "faction side quests" the module tried to foist on us that we only ever took a passing interest in. I'd love to hear from the group out there that spent their whole time enraptured in those.

Oh yeah. I now remember those being a thing. Couldn't get a single player to even give a second's glance to a solitary faction quest.

 

[practicalm]

As written the module is deeply flawed. I combined all 4 villains and my group had a great time.

I did not use the Remix as I had my own ideas which was everyone after the treasure and the party smack in the middle where everyone thinks they know more than they did and they had to play it cool trying to keep that going.

I really tried to make the adventure play like the movie "It's a Mad Mad World" where the villains made themselves as sympathetic as possible to convince the players to help them find the treasure.
All in all a rollicking good chase and much misdirection.

 

[Lyxen]

@Lyxen Dragonheist was designed as a backdrop and introduction before Undermountain.

And as pointed out by someone else, apart from being both set in Waterdeep, there is no connection, and the style of the adventures (at least as advertised, but also as designed) do not cater for the same crowd. We love city and intrigue adventures, and we don't like dungeons, especially mega-dungeons.

So it's not introductory, it's just convenience in a world where adventurers could actually travel, you know, at level 5 it's not unheard of.

If it’s polite, relevant and constructive (if that’s a more appropriate word then positive) I’ll ask any question I like.

I don't believe this is the way thread work on these forums. Whereas I can certainly give my opinion on the module, which is the clear subject of the thread. You don't like it, don't read it, but again, it's just to reinforce what the OP was saying.

@Retreater has been pretty consistently philosophical about these post mortem threads. I don’t agree with everything said but I find the work around and ideas really interesting and I think they have a ton of value… If the criticism is constructive. I’m not going to speak for anyone else.

And again, I mentioned possibly salvaging something out of the module, but necessitating heavy rework. What exactly is your problem with that ?

 

[Burnside]

In terms of what I can say constructively about this adventure (which full disclosure I'm currently running for a group of 8 players who are about to enter the Vault of Dragons):

- If you're not doing the Alexandrian remix and decide to go with one villain, I suggest Manshoon (winter). The main reason is that his chapter 4 encounter chain avoids the courtroom stuff, which is the most unhelpful/railroady thing that can happen in those encounter chains.

- One fun but rather throwaway part of the Manshoon backstory is that he previously tried to invade Undermountain but was beaten by Halaster, who destroyed Mansoon's hand. So in my campaign, Manshoon wants the gold primarily because he is interested in financing a powerful, all-out assault to conquer Undermountain. He views the city of Waterdeep as a hood ornament - what he really wants is Undermountain and Halaster's head on a platter (he is also suffering from the Weave Addiction, like Durnan and Halaster, which causes an obsession with Undermountain in people who have visited it).

- I knew my players would only slightly care about Trollskull and care not at all about the factions (which the adventure for whatever reason seems convinced that players will be deeply invested in). I replaced almost all of the underwritten capsule side-quests in Chapter 2 with a couple of city-based adventures that were either 3rd party from DMsGuild or stuff I made up.

- When running Chapter 4, don't use the chase rules from DMG as the adventure suggests. They are very bad. Just omit those chases or have them play as cinematics, depending on your style.

- If you have a warlock in the party, see if it would make sense for Golorr to be their patron.

- The "find the nimblewright" stuff in Chapter 3 is very poorly handled and can easily dead-end. Make this as easy as possible. Consider having the Sea Maiden's Faire parade happen prior to fireball, so that the players can see that the Sea Maiden's Faire owns nimblewrights which should send them to Zardoz Zord. He sold one to the Gralhunds.

 

[Mistwell]

YOU KILLED THE GOLDFISH

Oh lord. I hope your character hasn’t got any kids, or loved ones of any kind.

My PC did not understand the ramifications. We were under attack by invisible foes and the goldfish was visible in a bowl unprotected in the middle of the room. So, lacking a target my PC went to the goldfish and shouted to the invisible foes, "Cease your attacks and we'll talk, or else continue your attacks and the goldfish gets it." Xanathar then immediately fired a ray at that PC in response, which triggered the readied action to kill the fish...which it did.

 

[moriantumr]

I ran this adventure for an adventurer’s league table. Did they struggle with with investigation and chase sequences? Yes. Did they figure it out? Yes. Did they feel owning a pub that they couldn’t keep as their characters continued because it was adventurer’s league was silly/dumb? Yes. Did they invite a talking horse to do stand up for opening night? Did they commission a hibachi grill and hire a ghost to man it? Yes and yes.
Even though we had even weirder and more stringent rules layered on top of the adventure that made it more difficult to bring it together, the players had fun and made it their own.
Is dragon heist perfect? No. I have yet to find a perfect adventure module, but it is fun and focuses on elements of d&d that many 5e adventures do not.