Waterdeep - I've got it

[Arnwyn]

And there's TONS of references to other books, which is cool if you have them, but not so cool if you don't.

As I've read farther into it, I've discovered this to be a rather crippling blow. The number of references to non-core books is absolutely astonishing.

Now, I have no problem with referencing other FR books (this is an FR supplement after all), but the references to other non-core books is just dreadful.

Bad Eric! Bad WotC!

 

[Kae'Yoss]

As I've read farther into it, I've discovered this to be a rather crippling blow. The number of references to non-core books is absolutely astonishing.

Now, I have no problem with referencing other FR books (this is an FR supplement after all), but the references to other non-core books is just dreadful.

Bad Eric! Bad WotC!

As long as this is limited to monsters. What other references are there?

 

[Arnwyn]

As long as this is limited to monsters. What other references are there?

Yeah, I wish. I'm all right with that, too.

Sadly, it references loads of feats and prestige classes. In the Guilds section, it often mentions (paraphrased) "people in this guild are taught x feat (or y prestige class) as soon as possible" and x and y are from a myriad of non-core books (Complete Divine, etc). Same with NPC descriptions (though not in any actual stat blocks so far - just the usual "LG human male Fighter 6/ Prestige Class of DOOM! 4").

 

[CM]

In a sourcebook such as Waterdeep, the whole point is to give as detailed information on the people, places, and history of the subject as possible in the space allotted. I am baffled by the attitude that more variety and creativity is a bad thing when writing source material. The purpose is to flesh out the location sufficiently for DMs who do not care to spend the time necessary to do so themselves. I feel that NPCs are more unique and interesting with the wide variety of options available to the writers. Here's a few examples:

Muiral the Missshapen: tauric human/large monstrous scorpion barbarian 3/wizard 14/archmage 2
Trobriand the Metal Mage: wizard 12/techsmith 5/archmage 1
Mhair Szeltune: wizard 5/guild wizard of Waterdeep 10/archmage 4
Kappiyan Flurmastyr: wizard 7/master alchemist 10/loremaster 3

The vast majority of the NPCs in this particular book are only listed with their name, race, alignment, and class, so if I don't have Magic of Faerun and I want to use Kappiyan Flurmastyr in a game, I can easily make him a wizard 10/loremaster 10. If I have a PC who wants to join Lathander's Order of the Aster and I don't have Complete Divine, I'll tell the player to take Improved Turning instead of Disciple of the Sun. Please don't try to take away the writer's ability to convey more info about a NPC or group through their choice of classes and feats.

Now, if we're talking about an adventure module, I completely agree that references to outside sources should be kept to a bare minimum. Where at all possible, the authors should include as much relevant information as necessary to do so. In a sourcebook, I just don't see the problem.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Yeah, I wish. I'm all right with that, too.

Sadly, it references loads of feats and prestige classes. In the Guilds section, it often mentions (paraphrased) "people in this guild are taught x feat (or y prestige class) as soon as possible" and x and y are from a myriad of non-core books (Complete Divine, etc). Same with NPC descriptions (though not in any actual stat blocks so far - just the usual "LG human male Fighter 6/ Prestige Class of DOOM! 4").

I remember now, I've seen it. There's a tyrran sect that uses sacred fists, for example. I think that they can be replaced easily enough, though. In the example mentioned, you'll just add more levels of monk and cleric.

I think that I can forgive this transgression. Reading the book (I haven't come too far since I have 4 rulebooks I want to read at the moment, and right now I read more in L5R 3e) i get the impression that it was written by someone who read all former supplements about Waterdeep, all novels that feature the city in one way or another, and a ton of other realms and D&D material. I think he just couldn't help and keep referencing all kinds of books.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

Hello Eric,

What material, from your draft, ended up on the cutting room floor? Will we see any of this material elsewhere, such as in a web release?

I was very pleased by the book. It is well written, and possesses a unity and focus. It is also nicely concise without leaving any serous gaping plot holes or questions. They way you included elements from stories and novels is also highly commendable.

That said, I have two minor complaints.

First, the book describes a madness inducing taint of Undermountain. This is an interesting aspect, but it is not to my knowledge (I may have missed something) explored – how does that work in game mechanics and is it something the PC need to worry about when they go down there?

Second, you seemed to soften Khelben and his magical school. I am admittedly an ardent critic of Khelben, but as much as I dislike the character, I would personally prefer the SOB rather than changing him to make him “nicer.” Consistency is a friend.

 

[ericlboyd]

I answered the question on the WoTC boards.

--Eric

 

[Arnwyn]

I am baffled by the attitude that more variety and creativity is a bad thing when writing source material.

Can the strawman.

Muiral the Missshapen: tauric human/large monstrous scorpion barbarian 3/wizard 14/archmage 2
Trobriand the Metal Mage: wizard 12/techsmith 5/archmage 1
Mhair Szeltune: wizard 5/guild wizard of Waterdeep 10/archmage 4
Kappiyan Flurmastyr: wizard 7/master alchemist 10/loremaster 3

I find it amusing that the examples you included are exactly what I didn't mind.

In a sourcebook, I just don't see the problem.

I'm not asking you to. I do consider this to be one of those amusing ENWorld about-faces we often see here, where (for example) in previous editions people complained long and hard about books that continually reference other books, but suddenly it's "okay" now for whatever reason. Heh.

Yeah, I could do all the work changing it myself. But I shouldn't have to... that's why I pay others to write for me. But the point is, what are WotC's new policies with referencing? Which is it? The constant flip-flops aren't helpful.

(Otherwise, though, Waterdeep is pretty decent.)

 

[danbuter]

I answered the question on the WoTC boards.

--Eric

Could someone repost them here. I refuse to attempt to acces the WotC boards...

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Does it have stat blocks/info on the Lords of Waterdeep?